Episode 241

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Published on:

16th Jan 2024

Mastering Leadership: What It Takes to Move from a DOER to a LEADER | RR241

Ever wondered what it takes to lead in today's fast-paced world? Join us on this week's episode as I interview Vanessa Judelman, President of Mosaic People Development and author of 'Mastering Leadership.' Hailing from Toronto, Vanessa brings over 20 years of experience to the table as a speaker, facilitator, and certified executive coach.

In our conversation, we explore Vanessa's insights into the evolving landscape of leadership. Having worked “in the trenches” herself as a leader, she teaches her clients a very practical approach to leadership that she has used to develop her own high-performing teams. She gives them the tools and strategies they need to feel confident, be more self-aware, be team-focused, and be strategic. 

Vanessa leaves us with her three pillars of leadership success. Tune in for a journey into mastering leadership in today's dynamic world.

In this episode you will learn:

  • Why leadership can be challenging
  • How leadership has changed
  • The core things that leaders need to learn today
  • Collaboration has always been a part of leadership
  • The importance of delegation
  • How women and men lead differently
  • Three pillars of leadership success
  • The importance of discovering one's leadership style and authenticity
  • Benefits of working with leaders

Learn more about Vanessa:

Website: https://www.mosaicpd.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vanessajudelman/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MosaicPeopleDevelopment

IG: https://www.instagram.com/vanessajudelman/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MosaicPD

A little about me: 

I began my career as a teacher, was a corporate trainer for many years, and then found my niche training & supporting business owners, entrepreneurs & sales professionals to network at a world-class level. My passion is working with motivated people, who are coachable and who want to build their businesses through relationship marketing and networking (online & offline). I help my clients create retention strategies, grow through referrals, and create loyal customers by staying connected. 

In appreciation for being here, I have a couple of items for you. 

A LinkedIn Checklist for setting up your fully optimized Profile:  

An opportunity to test drive the Follow Up system I recommend by taking the  

10 Card Challenge – you won’t regret it.   


Connect with me: 

http://JanicePorter.com 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/janiceporter/ 

https://www.facebook.com/janiceporter1 


Thanks for listening! 

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Transcript
Janice Porter:

Hi, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode

Janice Porter:

of relationships rule. My guest today is coming to us from

Janice Porter:

Toronto, and I'm really excited to talk to her. Her name is

Janice Porter:

Vanessa unilumin. And Vanessa has is the author of the book

Janice Porter:

mastering leadership, what it takes to lead in today's fast

Janice Porter:

paced world about leadership. And she has also led her own

Janice Porter:

team. So there's gonna be some interesting conversation around

Janice Porter:

that. She's the president of Mosaic people development, and

Janice Porter:

for over 20 years has been helping clients to develop

Janice Porter:

leaders who inspire great results. She's a speaker, a

Janice Porter:

facilitator, a leadership consultant, and a certified

Janice Porter:

executive coach, and so much more. So welcome to the show,

Janice Porter:

Vanessa.

Vanessa Judelman:

Thank you, Janice, great to be here.

Janice Porter:

That it's great. Um, I want to start with the

Janice Porter:

fact that you were in the trenches yourself, you have gone

Janice Porter:

through that leadership, climb the ladder type thing yourself,

Janice Porter:

and so in. In doing that, there's so many things in there.

Janice Porter:

Like, first of all, how much has it changed since you were doing

Janice Porter:

that work has changed a lot? And there's and the second question,

Janice Porter:

which I know it's going to take a bit, so we'll just right, can

Janice Porter:

you share a personal leadership challenge that you faced, and

Janice Porter:

how you overcame it?

Vanessa Judelman:

Okay, I'm going to start with a challenge.

Vanessa Judelman:

And then I'm going to go into the change part. So Oh, my gosh,

Vanessa Judelman:

yeah, leadership is really challenging. It's not for the

Vanessa Judelman:

faint of heart. And it takes a lot of courage to be a leader.

Vanessa Judelman:

And that's why I really encourage leaders to get help

Vanessa Judelman:

get a coach, find a mentor, get training, because the thing that

Vanessa Judelman:

a lot of people don't realize is that when you go to university,

Vanessa Judelman:

when you go to college, and you learn a certain skill, you

Vanessa Judelman:

become an engineer, you become a marketing expert, whatever it is

Vanessa Judelman:

an architect, that's what you learn in school, and then you

Vanessa Judelman:

get promoted, because you're good at that job. But doing when

Vanessa Judelman:

you get promoted into leadership, for the first time,

Vanessa Judelman:

it's a completely different job. And most people don't realize

Vanessa Judelman:

that, right? And so they find it challenging, or they feel like

Vanessa Judelman:

they lack confidence. And that's normal, because it's a

Vanessa Judelman:

completely different job. And so for me, one of my challenges was

Vanessa Judelman:

working with people whose work style was different than mine.

Vanessa Judelman:

So I'm a very fast paced, action oriented, outgoing extrovert.

Vanessa Judelman:

I'm, I'm strategic, I like to move very quickly, I make

Vanessa Judelman:

decisions very quickly. And I love to see things happen,

Vanessa Judelman:

right? And for all of us, our strengths, when we overuse them

Vanessa Judelman:

actually become our weaknesses, right. And so for me, as someone

Vanessa Judelman:

who's very fast paced, and action oriented, I really was

Vanessa Judelman:

challenged by people on my team, who and I'm thinking of one

Vanessa Judelman:

person in particular, she was so challenging for me, Janice,

Vanessa Judelman:

because she required time to progress. very analytical. As a

Vanessa Judelman:

leader, she required a lot of detail from me. And to be really

Vanessa Judelman:

honest, I found that incredibly frustrating,

Janice Porter:

for sure, she was like the complete opposite of

Janice Porter:

you. So I can understand that totally

Vanessa Judelman:

polar opposite. She and she hated my

Vanessa Judelman:

work style. She hated my leadership style. For the first

Vanessa Judelman:

time in my career after leadership style. I was because

Vanessa Judelman:

I'm so caring and I, and I just give everything to what I do and

Vanessa Judelman:

to my team, and she hated my leadership style. She pushed

Vanessa Judelman:

back all the time. She told me she didn't appreciate many

Vanessa Judelman:

things that I did. But from her, I learned the most, of course,

Vanessa Judelman:

yeah, learn to slow down. I learned to write everything down

Vanessa Judelman:

for her. I learned to have agendas. I learned so much that

Vanessa Judelman:

has been so helpful. So she was really the most challenging

Vanessa Judelman:

person I've ever led. And the person I learned the most from

Janice Porter:

totally makes sense. And, and we I don't think

Janice Porter:

we know it at the time, especially on younger much

Janice Porter:

younger that that these people are meant to, you know, to

Janice Porter:

challenge us and to teach us something is funny, you know,

Janice Porter:

it's not funny, it wasn't funny last night but my little

Janice Porter:

granddaughter was here and she is four and she is hyper hyper

Janice Porter:

hyper. Okay, I can't I can't don't know what tonight's gonna

Janice Porter:

bring when she has Halloween candy in her but she didn't have

Janice Porter:

a nap at school yesterday. And I picked her up from school. And

Janice Porter:

she was fine in the car. We had this great conversation going

Janice Porter:

home and then we got home and we finished carving a pumpkin and

Janice Porter:

then all of a sudden she was like wild and she was running

Janice Porter:

around the house jump went upstairs was opening everything

Janice Porter:

was couldn't wouldn't listen to a thing. We finally after dinner

Janice Porter:

took her home Like we couldn't cope with her anymore. She was

Janice Porter:

unbelievable. But she's meant to teach us something this child,

Janice Porter:

she's come here for a reason. I mean, she is so because this is

Janice Porter:

what happened when my husband took her home. On the way home

Janice Porter:

in the car, she said, Grandpa, when I haven't had a nap, I get

Janice Porter:

crazy.

Vanessa Judelman:

Right? You knew that? What a wise child do

Vanessa Judelman:

that. She said,

Janice Porter:

I get crazy up and she did. So it's just a

Janice Porter:

stupid little story. But it's so the same thing in the sense that

Janice Porter:

they're not, we're not all built the same way. And we and we're

Janice Porter:

not, we have to learn to deal with all these other things. And

Janice Porter:

she'll learn as she gets older, hopefully that, you know, some

Janice Porter:

of that behavior wasn't appropriate. But anyway, so

Janice Porter:

funny. Okay, so the challenge, that person taught you a lot.

Janice Porter:

And so now, also, the second part was how leadership has

Janice Porter:

changed, right? Oh,

Vanessa Judelman:

boy, a lot, a lot. Let me tell you a story. I

Vanessa Judelman:

was just on the phone with one of my coaching clients. And he's

Vanessa Judelman:

only 30. Okay, only been working for eight years. And he said to

Vanessa Judelman:

me, Vanessa, the young people coming into the firm today are

Vanessa Judelman:

completely different. And I don't know how to motivate them

Vanessa Judelman:

and manage them. Because their expectations are different.

Vanessa Judelman:

Their work ethic is different. He's in a professional services

Vanessa Judelman:

firm. And it was a really interesting conversation,

Vanessa Judelman:

because he's right, the workplace has changed so much in

Vanessa Judelman:

the last eight years. And it's because of the pandemic, mainly

Vanessa Judelman:

right. When he started eight years ago, he worked in a

Vanessa Judelman:

professional services firm, he would sit right in a room with

Vanessa Judelman:

the other partners, and he would learn through osmosis, he would

Vanessa Judelman:

watch them he would see, he would see how they interacted

Vanessa Judelman:

with clients, right? People and you have to think about it,

Vanessa Judelman:

people who started in the last three years started work in a

Vanessa Judelman:

pandemic, in their bedrooms in their living rooms, right? They

Vanessa Judelman:

didn't have that ability to learn through osmosis. So one of

Vanessa Judelman:

the thought one of the core things that leaders need to

Vanessa Judelman:

learn today, that's so much different is number one, leading

Vanessa Judelman:

in a hybrid workplace. And number two, the way that you

Vanessa Judelman:

develop people now is completely different. I'm spending a lot of

Vanessa Judelman:

time with my clients, teaching them how to develop people in a

Vanessa Judelman:

virtual world, because our hybrid world is completely

Vanessa Judelman:

different.

Janice Porter:

Mm hmm. Yes. And I saw it with actually with my

Janice Porter:

daughter going starting a new job just several months ago,

Janice Porter:

working from home, she did actually go into an office and

Janice Porter:

meet with her boss and a couple of people a couple of times. So

Janice Porter:

she goes in there once in a while. But most of the time,

Janice Porter:

she's completely isolated by herself. And then sitting on

Janice Porter:

Zoom calls, trying to learn the product line and learn all this

Janice Porter:

stuff. And it's, it's just not the same. It's very, very

Janice Porter:

different for sure. So I can see that. And then also, just to

Janice Porter:

sort of sideline from that. I remember talking to a couple of

Janice Porter:

people who are in the business of the changing aspect of work

Janice Porter:

like that's their their work has changed and how I don't know if

Janice Porter:

I said this to you when we spoke previously, but the word

Janice Porter:

collaboration, actually, it's kind of a misnomer, in the sense

Janice Porter:

or not misnomer, but a an oxymoron because we're all, you

Janice Porter:

know, isolated in so many ways still, but that collaboration is

Janice Porter:

becoming more of a thing. And is an Would you agree with that,

Janice Porter:

first of all? Oh, yeah.

Vanessa Judelman:

I mean, collaboration is always core to

Vanessa Judelman:

leadership, because as a leader, you you have your job, right. So

Vanessa Judelman:

you have your own objectives and accountabilities. And you also

Vanessa Judelman:

have to get results through other people. That's your job as

Vanessa Judelman:

a leader, right, of course. So collaboration is always has has

Vanessa Judelman:

always been and will always be a part of leadership. And the way

Vanessa Judelman:

that you collaborate now is different because you can't walk

Vanessa Judelman:

over to someone's desk. Right? So the one of the core skills

Vanessa Judelman:

that I've been really working on with the leaders that I'm

Vanessa Judelman:

working with is coaching, right? Because you can be a really good

Vanessa Judelman:

coach virtual in in a virtual capacity in person over zoom.

Vanessa Judelman:

And so, for example, one of the one of my coaching clients that

Vanessa Judelman:

I was chatting with yesterday, she was really having a problem

Vanessa Judelman:

in meetings and keeping her meetings focused. And one of the

Vanessa Judelman:

things she said to me is, you know, Vanessa, I find she leads

Vanessa Judelman:

a group of project managers that I have to be so patient because

Vanessa Judelman:

the first 10 minutes all they do is complain. And as a leader, I

Vanessa Judelman:

want to be collaborative, and I want to give them space to vent

Vanessa Judelman:

but to be honest, it drives me crazy. So I said this is

Vanessa Judelman:

coaching. And one of the ways that you can coach is is As you

Vanessa Judelman:

know, coming from that place of curiosity, and tool that I want

Vanessa Judelman:

to share with your listeners is asking questions that start with

Vanessa Judelman:

the word watch. Because what questions are very open ended.

Vanessa Judelman:

And so the structure that I put in place, the coaching structure

Vanessa Judelman:

I put in place for her is, when you start a meeting, start with

Vanessa Judelman:

these three steps. Number one, what's working on this project,

Vanessa Judelman:

everybody start with the positive, it immediately gets

Vanessa Judelman:

people to recognize that you know what, there are things that

Vanessa Judelman:

are going well, then you start, then you move to what's not

Vanessa Judelman:

working, and literally type it on a whiteboard, you can do this

Vanessa Judelman:

on Zoom, you can do it virtually put a wipe, what's not working,

Vanessa Judelman:

then go through everything, what's not working. And the

Vanessa Judelman:

third column would be what can we do to overcome what's not

Vanessa Judelman:

working. That's just an example of how we can be collaborative.

Vanessa Judelman:

OCE people get them to think for themselves and solve their own

Vanessa Judelman:

problems all at the same time. So leaders are having to learn

Vanessa Judelman:

tools like that, to build collaboration in a virtual

Vanessa Judelman:

world.

Janice Porter:

That's a great, that's great. I think anybody

Janice Porter:

whether you're leading a team, or you're a leader, you know,

Janice Porter:

you're even an entrepreneur, solopreneur, but you have some

Janice Porter:

contract staff that you have worked for you every once in a

Janice Porter:

while, or you know, or regularly, but you have to learn

Janice Porter:

how to how to lead them to do what you want, how you want it,

Janice Porter:

and so on as well. That for me is is you know, I always thought

Janice Porter:

of myself, I was a teacher in my first life. And then I was a

Janice Porter:

corporate trainer. And in both cases, I'm in front of the group

Janice Porter:

I'm teaching I'm not coaching I'm teaching is totally

Janice Porter:

different thing. However, they're all looking to me for

Janice Porter:

the answers. Right? And, and, and I was extroverted. So I was

Janice Porter:

comfortable being in that situation. As I've gotten older,

Janice Porter:

I don't feel as comfortable about it as they used to. And

Janice Porter:

also, I think my confidence around well, I don't know, if

Janice Porter:

it's confidence, or I just don't like to delegate, I've become

Janice Porter:

real. Yeah. And I think you have to be able, I think I heard that

Janice Porter:

you say that in something I was listening to about delegating.

Janice Porter:

That's one of the things you have to learn to do as a leader.

Vanessa Judelman:

Oh, for sure. And, again, it's one of those

Vanessa Judelman:

skills that are critical, that is critical for leadership, but

Vanessa Judelman:

most people don't know how to do it. And the reason it's critical

Vanessa Judelman:

is delegation has so many different purposes. So one of

Vanessa Judelman:

the purposes of delegation is just for you to get things off

Vanessa Judelman:

your plate that you shouldn't be focusing your time on, right.

Vanessa Judelman:

Whenever I say whenever I speak to leaders, I get them to write

Vanessa Judelman:

down their priorities, what are your key goals and priorities

Vanessa Judelman:

right now? And then I get them to look at their to do list and

Vanessa Judelman:

say, Okay, let's look at what's on your to do list. Now, what's

Vanessa Judelman:

aligned with that and what's not? And what do you need to let

Vanessa Judelman:

go up? Because sometimes leaders don't delegate because they like

Vanessa Judelman:

doing something, right. But it's not their job to do it anymore.

Vanessa Judelman:

It was maybe like two jobs ago. Number one, you have to be

Vanessa Judelman:

willing to let go. So one of the benefits of delegation is you

Vanessa Judelman:

get to let go stuff and get it off your plate. The second

Vanessa Judelman:

benefit is for your team, because they get to learn. And

Vanessa Judelman:

one of the key motivators for people in the workplace is

Vanessa Judelman:

learning and growth. People want to learn and grow. Okay, another

Vanessa Judelman:

benefit of delegation is succession planning. You know,

Vanessa Judelman:

if you decide to leave your organization or move to another

Vanessa Judelman:

department in your organization, you need a successor. And so

Vanessa Judelman:

you're building and developing your successor. Its delegations

Vanessa Judelman:

a retention strategy, again, because people want to learn and

Vanessa Judelman:

grow. So delegation is not only for you, it's for your team as

Vanessa Judelman:

and the organization as well, there's so many

Janice Porter:

benefits. Mm hmm. So when I think about people

Janice Porter:

being elevated to leadership roles for the first time, and

Janice Porter:

things like that, I think of the Peter Principle, I can't help

Janice Porter:

it. But you know, so often I've seen people get put into an, as

Janice Porter:

I recall, the Peter Principle is sort of being at the level of

Janice Porter:

your incompetence, right, that you move to a level that you

Janice Porter:

that is too much for you or you're not ready for or you're

Janice Porter:

in the wrong place. How often does that happen? And how can it

Janice Porter:

be avoided?

Vanessa Judelman:

Well, it happens every time someone's

Vanessa Judelman:

promoted.

Janice Porter:

Okay, yes,

Vanessa Judelman:

I call it new level new devil, right? Every

Vanessa Judelman:

time you're promoted, your job actually changes. So I coach a

Vanessa Judelman:

lot of people who I call it transition coaching, who

Vanessa Judelman:

transition from maybe VP to SVP or director to VP or SVP to

Vanessa Judelman:

President. I have a client now who's just been promoted to the

Vanessa Judelman:

role of president within her organization. So if you think

Vanessa Judelman:

about it, when you're when you're leading for the first

Vanessa Judelman:

time, there's actually a really interesting book called The

Vanessa Judelman:

leadership pipeline, and they talk about the six passages of

Vanessa Judelman:

leadership in the book, right? So if you're passage one leading

Vanessa Judelman:

yourself, your job is to show up to work on time, be accountable,

Vanessa Judelman:

have ownership over your job, be really good at what you do and

Vanessa Judelman:

be a team player, the minute you move into passage to have

Vanessa Judelman:

leadership, when you're managing other people for the first time,

Vanessa Judelman:

your jobs just changed. Now you're not only accountable for

Vanessa Judelman:

yourself, but for you have to get results through others, then

Vanessa Judelman:

passage three is managing other managers accountable for

Vanessa Judelman:

yourself. And now you have to get results through managers,

Vanessa Judelman:

you have to get results through their people. So yeah, every

Vanessa Judelman:

time you move into a new level of leadership, you have to learn

Vanessa Judelman:

new skills. That's and and you have to learn to be more

Vanessa Judelman:

strategic, for example, that's just, that's just a fact.

Janice Porter:

So I have to ask this question, because it with

Janice Porter:

the way works changed over the years. And with the the, there's

Janice Porter:

still a very small percentage of women in the top leadership

Janice Porter:

positions. But it's getting a little bit better, I hope, I

Janice Porter:

think, do you see changes in leadership with more women at

Janice Porter:

the top? Do you see in in not in leadership? Well, yeah, in

Janice Porter:

leadership, do you see changes because women are now in those

Janice Porter:

visits are in those positions?

Vanessa Judelman:

I do women and men are different, we lead

Vanessa Judelman:

differently. You know, women do tend to work more. I mean,

Vanessa Judelman:

there's there's actually strengths and weaknesses that

Vanessa Judelman:

women bring to the table. For example, a lot of women don't

Vanessa Judelman:

share their accomplishments. So on one hand, women are amazing

Vanessa Judelman:

leaders, because they're incredibly compassionate, great

Vanessa Judelman:

listeners really care about their people. But remember, all

Vanessa Judelman:

of your strengths, when you overuse them become your

Vanessa Judelman:

weaknesses. So sometimes women care too much that they don't

Vanessa Judelman:

give difficult feedback. Or women are not trained to share

Vanessa Judelman:

their accomplishments. So you may see a woman getting promoted

Vanessa Judelman:

into passage to have leadership, but she's gonna be overlooked

Vanessa Judelman:

for the next passage, because there's a man who's younger than

Vanessa Judelman:

her, I see this all the time, who's getting promoted over her

Vanessa Judelman:

because he gets his own horn all the time, and shares his

Vanessa Judelman:

accomplishments. Why because he's, that's how that's how he

Vanessa Judelman:

was taught as a boy. And so that's one of the things that

Vanessa Judelman:

women leaders need to know you have to share your

Vanessa Judelman:

accomplishments, you can't think that someone's going to notice

Vanessa Judelman:

what your accomplishments are. It's your job to share them and

Vanessa Judelman:

to speak up. That's

Janice Porter:

really good. Yeah, I like that. I like that.

Janice Porter:

So what would you say the top three things are that it that it

Janice Porter:

takes to lead with impact?

Vanessa Judelman:

So I have a great question. I actually have

Vanessa Judelman:

a leadership model, which has three pillars, I call it the

Vanessa Judelman:

three pillars of leadership success. So the three pillars

Vanessa Judelman:

are as a leader, you have to know yourself, manage your team

Vanessa Judelman:

and lead your business. So the Know yourself is self awareness.

Vanessa Judelman:

So what are my strengths? What are my weaknesses? How am I

Vanessa Judelman:

overusing my strengths? Are they become weaknesses? What kind of

Vanessa Judelman:

environment do I create? How is that motivating and

Vanessa Judelman:

demotivating? For the people on my team? How do I build trust?

Vanessa Judelman:

That's the first pillar, the second pillar, manage my team is

Vanessa Judelman:

all about how do I coach? How do I develop my team? How do I give

Vanessa Judelman:

feedback? How do I move my team, maybe from underperforming to

Vanessa Judelman:

performing or to become a high performing team, and then lead

Vanessa Judelman:

your business is all about leading and managing change. And

Vanessa Judelman:

in an order in, in an environment where 70% of change

Vanessa Judelman:

initiatives fail, mostly just don't know how to lead change,

Vanessa Judelman:

that has to be a priority for leaders. Lead your business is

Vanessa Judelman:

about executing strategically, it's about being very focused on

Vanessa Judelman:

your priorities and managing your time effectively. So so

Vanessa Judelman:

that's why leader leadership is very complex, right? Because

Vanessa Judelman:

there's so many different components of leadership. And

Vanessa Judelman:

what I've tried to do in sharing these three pillars with leaders

Vanessa Judelman:

is to take that complexity leadership and really narrow it

Vanessa Judelman:

down into those three things, those three pillars or areas.

Vanessa Judelman:

Okay, that

Janice Porter:

makes total sense. So, not everybody's a

Janice Porter:

leader, and not everybody. In my estimation, not everybody has

Janice Porter:

that has the qualities to be a leader. Would you agree or not?

Janice Porter:

Because you teach leadership? Were you coaching? Yes. So do

Janice Porter:

you ever come across people in leadership positions that you

Janice Porter:

think they're that they are in over their head that that's not

Janice Porter:

the right fit for them?

Vanessa Judelman:

Well, I do believe because I've seen it,

Vanessa Judelman:

everyone can be a leader, okay. Everyone can be a leader. And

Vanessa Judelman:

the two things I want to see are skill and Well, number one, you

Vanessa Judelman:

can learn leadership skills. Okay, fair enough. Oh, many

Vanessa Judelman:

leaders are horrible leaders because it's, it's quite

Vanessa Judelman:

frankly, it's not their fault.

Janice Porter:

Yeah, they haven't had the they didn't

Janice Porter:

haven't been given the tools. Yeah. Yeah.

Vanessa Judelman:

They don't know. They don't know that, Oh,

Vanessa Judelman:

it's my job to coach and develop people and give feedback. And

Vanessa Judelman:

oh, and then they they just learned from some other bad

Vanessa Judelman:

things or that they had who wasn't properly anyways. So part

Vanessa Judelman:

of it is skill. The other part is, well, do I like it, I want

Vanessa Judelman:

to do this. I've had people who were promoted into leadership

Vanessa Judelman:

roles. And they've said to me, you don't Vanessa, I don't like

Vanessa Judelman:

it. I want to be an individual contributor. And they've gone

Vanessa Judelman:

back to doing that. And I've had people who've said, now that I

Vanessa Judelman:

have the skill, the will is now there. It can go both ways.

Janice Porter:

Yeah, I think I guess you're right. I, I

Janice Porter:

remember wanting to looking at somebody I know that was in a

Janice Porter:

teaching situation, and and thinking about going into

Janice Porter:

administration, which is a completely different thing, and

Janice Porter:

got a chance to test it. And it felt it wasn't for him because

Janice Porter:

he was too far removed from the kids. So you know, not to say, I

Janice Porter:

guess that he couldn't have learned the skills that he

Janice Porter:

needed. But did he want to?

Vanessa Judelman:

Yeah, the other thing that leaders have to

Vanessa Judelman:

understand is, for all of us, there's a way to lead

Vanessa Judelman:

authentically and you have to discover that's part of that

Vanessa Judelman:

first pillar of know yourself, you have to discover what it

Vanessa Judelman:

looks like for you to lead authentically. And I think a lot

Vanessa Judelman:

of people have this model of leadership as an extrovert,

Vanessa Judelman:

being an extrovert, you're walking the halls and you're

Vanessa Judelman:

connecting with people and you're shouting out to people.

Vanessa Judelman:

No, but I've worked with many. And I think that's why the book

Vanessa Judelman:

quiet by Susan Cain was so popular because she said, No,

Vanessa Judelman:

you know, and in terms of definitions, extroverts get

Vanessa Judelman:

their energy from others introverts their energy from

Vanessa Judelman:

themselves. It's not how friendly or outgoing you are at

Vanessa Judelman:

all. And so I work with a lot of introverted leaders to say,

Vanessa Judelman:

Okay, it's not going to feel authentic for you to lead in the

Vanessa Judelman:

same way, someone who's highly motivating and extroverted with

Vanessa Judelman:

lead. So let's talk about what it looks like you're an amazing

Vanessa Judelman:

listener, how can you really dial up your listening? You are

Vanessa Judelman:

really good at creating structure for people, how can we

Vanessa Judelman:

leverage that? Right? And so every leader comes with their

Vanessa Judelman:

strengths, and that's what you need to lead from.

Janice Porter:

Okay, so I jumped right in at the beginning. So

Janice Porter:

now I just want to back up for a second and say, Okay, how did

Janice Porter:

you get to this? How did you see that this was your, your secret

Janice Porter:

sauce that you this was your piece that you needed to teach

Janice Porter:

others or coach others how to be great leaders? How did you go

Janice Porter:

from being in the trenches, so to speak, and climbing that

Janice Porter:

ladder to now working for yourself and teaching others?

Vanessa Judelman:

So like you I went? When I was at McGill

Vanessa Judelman:

University in Montreal, I was an English major. And my mom said,

Vanessa Judelman:

What are you going to do with an English degree? She was a

Vanessa Judelman:

teacher, she said, Go to teachers college, I spent an

Vanessa Judelman:

extra year I became a teacher I worked with at risk youth. After

Vanessa Judelman:

getting a few binders thrown at my head, I thought, oh, you

Vanessa Judelman:

know, I don't think this is for me. And I got an amazing job at

Vanessa Judelman:

a training and consulting firm. And I worked there for 10 years.

Vanessa Judelman:

And in that organization, I worked with global companies. I

Vanessa Judelman:

had business development role, I had a junior Consulting and a

Vanessa Judelman:

senior consulting role. Then I moved in house, I thought enough

Vanessa Judelman:

of consulting, I'd have to be a leader myself, moved in house.

Vanessa Judelman:

And that's where I was in the trenches, and I built teams, I

Vanessa Judelman:

inherited teams that were low performing, I built high

Vanessa Judelman:

performing teams, I worked with people who, as I mentioned, who

Vanessa Judelman:

loved my leadership, sadly, didn't. And that was the best

Vanessa Judelman:

experience. And after doing that, for many years, I thought,

Vanessa Judelman:

Okay, now I'm ready to grow on my own. And what led me to being

Vanessa Judelman:

a leadership consultant coach was actually, I mean, I always

Vanessa Judelman:

love working with leaders because I feel like leaders

Vanessa Judelman:

really set the tone in an organization. And if you can

Vanessa Judelman:

work on a leader to develop their skills and confidence, it

Vanessa Judelman:

has just tremendous ripple effects across their lives,

Vanessa Judelman:

across their teams, laws, even their home lives, right. And

Vanessa Judelman:

when I was on my second maternity leave, I actually had

Vanessa Judelman:

the experience of having a horrendous leader who made my

Vanessa Judelman:

life so miserable. And she was a very what I call unconscious

Vanessa Judelman:

leader, she had no understanding of how her behavior impacted the

Vanessa Judelman:

people around her. She was very harsh, overly direct, very

Vanessa Judelman:

controlling really quite nasty. And when I had that experience

Vanessa Judelman:

that really solidified my passion for leadership because I

Vanessa Judelman:

really didn't want anyone to go through the experience that I

Vanessa Judelman:

had of, of really like it was quite soul sucking having that

Vanessa Judelman:

kind of soul sucking leader. Yeah,

Janice Porter:

I that was my very first principal when I

Janice Porter:

taught school was that person. Wow. Yeah, and I I'm amazed I

Janice Porter:

went beyond it. But I got out of there very quickly to another

Janice Porter:

school because he was just killing it for me and eventually

Janice Porter:

got asked to retire early. But that's about all they did in the

Janice Porter:

school system. But But yes, that was an experience at 21. That I,

Janice Porter:

I didn't know what to do with at the time, but you never forget

Janice Porter:

those things, right? You just don't they, they stay with you

Janice Porter:

and you the negative that, you know, that had such an effect on

Janice Porter:

you at the time. But then again, I'm thinking what you just said

Janice Porter:

about the good leaders, the positive leaders, the people,

Janice Porter:

you say, Oh, I just loved working for them. They were just

Janice Porter:

amazing. You know, he was taught me a lot, or she taught me a

Janice Porter:

lot. That's great. So I know that you work with a lot of,

Janice Porter:

well, organizations like you've worked with Campbell's Soup, the

Janice Porter:

United Nations, some really interesting organizations. And

Janice Porter:

there's one now I want to ask you about because I know it's a

Janice Porter:

client of yours now. And because it's a huge thing right now. And

Janice Porter:

that's HelloFresh. Right. And I don't use HelloFresh. But I do

Janice Porter:

use one of those food companies on occasion. And, and what makes

Janice Porter:

what I know they're a good one. And it's obviously one because

Janice Porter:

of the food. And so to it must be the leadership. So tell me

Janice Porter:

about what makes them a good company, how you've helped them.

Vanessa Judelman:

So I work with HelloFresh, Canada, it's a

Vanessa Judelman:

global organization. First of all, their president is

Vanessa Judelman:

incredible. His name is Ian Brooks. He is one of those

Vanessa Judelman:

leaders who is incredibly personable, incredibly

Vanessa Judelman:

strategic, very smart, very people oriented, he has that

Vanessa Judelman:

balance between task orientation and relationship orientation. So

Vanessa Judelman:

I always find it organizations like that the leaders set the

Vanessa Judelman:

tone. So here you have this leader at the top, who sets the

Vanessa Judelman:

tone?

Janice Porter:

Is he the top of Canada or the top? Got it?

Vanessa Judelman:

Okay, yes, he's the top candidate, and he

Vanessa Judelman:

values his people. So that's why he hired me, because he said, I

Vanessa Judelman:

know that leadership is a learned skill, I really value my

Vanessa Judelman:

people. And I want everybody across the organization, and

Vanessa Judelman:

I've been working them for three or four years, he said, I want

Vanessa Judelman:

everyone across the organization to know why I value them, to

Vanessa Judelman:

know I care about them, and to know that I'm investing in them.

Vanessa Judelman:

And they just hire really great people and invest in their

Vanessa Judelman:

people. And now I run, you know, maybe two cohorts of a year

Vanessa Judelman:

about 20 leaders. And so there's hundreds of people in the

Vanessa Judelman:

organization now who are knowledgeable, who know how to

Vanessa Judelman:

lead who understand their strengths and weaknesses, who

Vanessa Judelman:

know what it takes to build high trust, who know how to develop

Vanessa Judelman:

their people. And so it's really created this ripple effect of a

Vanessa Judelman:

culture of learning and growth and a very, and that's one thing

Vanessa Judelman:

that Ian has is a very growth mindset. He really understands

Vanessa Judelman:

that nothing is set in stone that, you know, people really

Vanessa Judelman:

need to be given the opportunity to learn and grow and develop

Janice Porter:

that special. That's really scary. Special.

Janice Porter:

Yeah, I love that. So, as we wind down, I want to ask you a

Janice Porter:

couple of questions just for fun because I like to dig in a

Janice Porter:

little bit with my with my guests. The first one is Are you

Janice Porter:

do you go to a book book? Do you read? Do you do audible? Do you

Janice Porter:

do video? Do you do TV? Like movies? Like what? What's your

Janice Porter:

first thing that you love to do?

Vanessa Judelman:

I do it all. I'm obsessed with podcasts. I

Vanessa Judelman:

love to read. I mean, I was an English major in university. So

Vanessa Judelman:

if you saw a stack of books beside my bedside table, I love

Vanessa Judelman:

to read. I used

Janice Porter:

to but I don't read them as surprising. Yes,

Vanessa Judelman:

it's fun to buy books. Maybe through osmosis

Vanessa Judelman:

if you look at them, right? They'll go into your brain. I

Vanessa Judelman:

like to balance business books with with fiction. And so right

Vanessa Judelman:

now I'm reading the book soundtracks by Jon Acuff and

Vanessa Judelman:

it's an amazing book because it's about mindset. And so he

Vanessa Judelman:

talks, even though the name soundtracks is so good, because

Vanessa Judelman:

basically what he says in the book is that we all have

Vanessa Judelman:

soundtracks in our mind, just like you know, on your on your

Vanessa Judelman:

on your iPod. on your iPad, you've got a soundtrack.

Vanessa Judelman:

Spotify, you got your soundtracks in your brain you

Vanessa Judelman:

have a soundtrack to and so when he teaches people is to notice

Vanessa Judelman:

what your soundtrack is, most of the time it's negative. And so

Vanessa Judelman:

how do you change your soundtrack? Oh, it's an I really

Vanessa Judelman:

recommend

Janice Porter:

the book. It's an excellent soundtrack. Next.

Janice Porter:

Okay, that sounds really cool. So yes, I bought a novel not

Janice Porter:

long ago because I thought this I'd seen someone in 60 minutes

Janice Porter:

or CBS Sunday Morning and that the author and I thought it

Janice Porter:

looked really interesting. And I think it's called chemistry

Janice Porter:

lessons or something like that anyway, but now I'm doomed

Janice Porter:

because I've read like three pages, and it's now on Apple TV,

Janice Porter:

it's an eight part series or something like that on Apple TV.

Janice Porter:

So now I'm doing because I'm gonna have to watch that. And

Janice Porter:

I'll never read the book, because I'll never get the book

Janice Porter:

read fast enough, before it's gone. So I know crazy. It's an

Janice Porter:

interesting story about a woman in the 50s. And she was a

Janice Porter:

chemistry teacher. And I think it moves into, you know, maybe

Janice Porter:

she does a TV show or something? I don't know. It's I haven't

Janice Porter:

read it, obviously. But it looked interesting. And Brie

Janice Porter:

Larson is playing the character. And it's, you know, it'll be a

Janice Porter:

period piece in the 50s. And I kind of like that. So, yes, but

Janice Porter:

I mostly read more business books and things like that as

Janice Porter:

well. But okay, so you said you do the you do at all? Do you do

Janice Porter:

TV? And like, Are you a Netflix kind of person? Or do you watch

Janice Porter:

fiction on? On there? You're watching like fiction?

Vanessa Judelman:

Yeah, I like fiction. I like to have a break

Vanessa Judelman:

from, like, my brain needs a break. You know, I've got

Vanessa Judelman:

teenage boys and basket basketball practice and meals

Vanessa Judelman:

that they consume that need to be prepared. I don't know why

Vanessa Judelman:

children constantly need to eat. But that's another story. Three

Vanessa Judelman:

Meals a Day seems like a lot. So yeah, I like to have my chill

Vanessa Judelman:

time and watch Netflix.

Janice Porter:

I'm glad to hear that. All right. And last

Janice Porter:

question is second to last on line last second glass. My

Janice Porter:

favorite word is curiosity. And my question for you is two part

Janice Porter:

one. Do you believe that curiosity is innate, or learned?

Janice Porter:

And second part, what are you most curious about these days?

Vanessa Judelman:

So curiosity is an important part of

Vanessa Judelman:

coaching. And curiosity is something that I teach clients

Vanessa Judelman:

all the time to find that when I do I often do the DISC profile

Vanessa Judelman:

with people, which is a tool that assesses their work style,

Vanessa Judelman:

some work styles, some people are naturally more curious. And

Vanessa Judelman:

there's tools like Edward de Bono, I'm not sure if you're

Vanessa Judelman:

familiar with Edward de Bono, he does thinking hats and lateral

Vanessa Judelman:

thinking tools. And he teaches people how to be more curious by

Vanessa Judelman:

leveraging tools. So I do think some people are innately more

Vanessa Judelman:

curious. And I believe it's a skill you can develop. What am I

Vanessa Judelman:

curious about these days? I mean, from the from the

Vanessa Judelman:

perspective of leadership, I'm curious how really around the

Vanessa Judelman:

impact of the pandemic and the people not being in the office

Vanessa Judelman:

together. I'm super curious about what the impact of that is

Vanessa Judelman:

going to be in a year or two from now, when we've had so many

Vanessa Judelman:

people, you know, who were 2021 2223, who started the work,

Vanessa Judelman:

their own work experience from home. And so I'm just super

Vanessa Judelman:

curious to see how that's going to translate into the change of

Vanessa Judelman:

corporate culture and how we need to develop people and, like

Vanessa Judelman:

curious about. Yeah, I

Janice Porter:

think that's really, it will be really

Janice Porter:

interesting. And hopefully, it'll be positive, but we won't

Janice Porter:

know for a couple of years yet. Right. So last question. As a

Janice Porter:

leadership coach, and someone who has been in the trenches,

Janice Porter:

and has been teaching us been coaching in this leadership

Janice Porter:

field for a long time, what would your best piece of wisdom

Janice Porter:

be for my audience who really mostly are small business

Janice Porter:

owners, entrepreneurs, not so much corporate, but leadership

Janice Porter:

is so important still in? You know, Oh, yeah.

Vanessa Judelman:

Oh, yeah, I would say, be prepared. A lot of

Vanessa Judelman:

leaders wing things. And I would say, wing it less, and be

Vanessa Judelman:

prepared more. A couple of examples would be come to your

Vanessa Judelman:

meetings with agendas. When you need to give feedback, write it

Vanessa Judelman:

down. Think about it in advance. When you're onboarding someone

Vanessa Judelman:

have a plan to onboard them. When you wake up in the morning,

Vanessa Judelman:

do your to do list. I mean, these are just really simple

Vanessa Judelman:

things that if you do them if you you know, when you think

Vanessa Judelman:

about time management, time management is not actually time

Vanessa Judelman:

management, because nobody can stop the clock. It's self

Vanessa Judelman:

management. It's how I manage myself in relation to the time

Vanessa Judelman:

that I have And so that's why I think being prepared is so

Vanessa Judelman:

critical for leadership. Whether you're leading a huge team or a

Vanessa Judelman:

small team. I

Janice Porter:

think that's great advice. Thank you so much.

Janice Porter:

Thank you for being here. And I think I have all your info where

Janice Porter:

people can find you mosaic pd.com. Yes. Your mosaic

Vanessa Judelman:

of development. So you can go into

Vanessa Judelman:

Google and type in mosaic people development or mosaic pd.com.

Vanessa Judelman:

That works to

Janice Porter:

perfect. So thank you so much for being here.

Janice Porter:

Thank you to my audience again for listening. If you like what

Janice Porter:

you heard, please go and seek out of Vanessa's work in on her

Janice Porter:

website and on LinkedIn Of course, and remember to stay

Janice Porter:

connected and be remembered

Listen for free

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About the Podcast

Relationships Rule
It’s always about Relationships!
Imagine that 68% of our clients leave because they feel we don’t care. Then visualize having authentic heart-based retention strategies, proven to minimize client losses, while organically generating a substantial number of loyal clients through referrals.

Catch a glimpse of how Janice opens a conversation by applying her fine-tuned curiosity. Notice how genuinely interested she is in building a relationship with her guests – heart-based business owners and entrepreneurs. In mere minutes, guests generously share their most sweet and powerful retention systems that you can adopt today!

As a seasoned relationship marketing specialist, Janice invites us to listen in weekly, as she reveals how to nurture and build relationships in real-time.

The Relationships Rule podcast’s aim, is to help you naturally ease your networking fears, so you can adopt strategies that amplify your client list, because the facts are, that today, success is built on a foundation of strong relationships. You can relax now, knowing you can activate your relationship marketing plan, by simply tuning in to Relationships Rule each week.

About your host

Profile picture for Janice Porter

Janice Porter

I began my career as a teacher, was a corporate trainer for many years, and have now found my niche in coaching business owners to network at a world-class level.
My passion is working with motivated people, who are coachable and who want to build their businesses through relationship marketing and networking (offline & online). I help my clients create retention strategies, grow through referrals, and create loyal customers by staying connected.