Episode 336

full
Published on:

11th Nov 2025

The Human Side of Influence: Why Emotion Always Wins | RR 336

If you want to connect and influence others authentically, you need to understand the part of the brain that makes every decision. In this episode, I sit down with Tim Ash, bestselling author of Unleash Your Primal Brain and co-author of Primal Dating, to explore how our primal brain still runs the show in business, marketing, and leadership today.

Tim shares why emotion, not logic, drives every choice we make, and how this understanding can help us lead, market, and communicate with more empathy and purpose. We also talk about culture, belonging, and the importance of purpose as a compass for every decision.

Key Takeaways:

  • Emotion always wins. Every decision starts with feeling; logic only justifies it later.
  • Inaction is the brain’s default. To move people, create emotional urgency, not pressure.
  • Culture is built through connection. True culture happens in shared challenges and genuine modeling.
  • Purpose guides direction. Having a bigger-than-you purpose clarifies your yeses and nos.
  • Relationships are everything. We are wired to bond through shared experiences, not transactions.

Tim’s thoughtful, science-based approach to influence reminds us that connection begins where emotion lives. Understanding the brain helps us build trust in ways that are natural, ethical, and deeply human.


Connect with Tim:

Website: timash.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timash


In appreciation for being here, I have some gifts for you:

A LinkedIn Checklist for setting up your fully optimized Profile:

An opportunity to test drive the Follow Up system I recommend by checking this presentation page - you won’t regret it. 


AND … Don’t forget to connect with me on LinkedIn and be eligible for my complimentary LinkedIn profile audit – I do one each month for a lucky listener!


Connect with me:

http://JanicePorter.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/janiceporter/

https://www.facebook.com/janiceporter1

https://www.instagram.com/socjanice/


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Transcript
Janice Porter:

Tim, hello. Hello and welcome to this week's

Janice Porter:

episode of relationships rule. Today I'm joined by Tim Ashe, an

Janice Porter:

internationally recognized speaker, Best Selling Author,

Janice Porter:

multiple times and advisor to some of the biggest brands in

Janice Porter:

the world with a background in both computer science and

Janice Porter:

cognitive psychology. Tim helps leaders, marketers and

Janice Porter:

entrepreneurs understand how to influence human behavior

Janice Porter:

ethically. We're going to look at how persuasion works at a

Janice Porter:

primal level. We're going to talk a little bit about his

Janice Porter:

books, and we're going to just get into his head a little bit,

Janice Porter:

because this man has a lot to share. So welcome to the show.

Janice Porter:

Tim,

Tim Ash:

thanks, Janice, it's great to be with you. Oh, if you

Tim Ash:

want to get in my head, that's like an addict that needs a

Tim Ash:

major spring cleaning. Well,

Janice Porter:

I'm going to start like off script

Janice Porter:

completely, because I know that you, you've done a lot of

Janice Porter:

schooling, and you were in the evolutionary psychology you've

Janice Porter:

done machine learning and AI before, it was sexy to do that,

Janice Porter:

right, like, you've been in those and you were involved, I

Janice Porter:

think, in a very, I think very like, makes My brain go crazy

Janice Porter:

world, and that's SEO and optimization and all of those

Janice Porter:

things, when you know people were just getting started with

Janice Porter:

websites and what works and what doesn't. And you am I correct

Janice Porter:

there that

Tim Ash:

well, that everything except that last part, SEO is

Tim Ash:

basically ranking high in search engines like Google. My focus in

Tim Ash:

the field that I was one of the founders in is called Conversion

Tim Ash:

Rate Optimization and and that's so it doesn't matter how you get

Tim Ash:

traffic to your website. The idea is, how do you get people

Tim Ash:

to act? Whether you want them to buy something, fill out a form,

Tim Ash:

call you whatever that action is. We were trying to get a

Tim Ash:

higher percentage of people to act, and that's a combination of

Tim Ash:

psychology and measuring things and good user experience and

Tim Ash:

good design.

Janice Porter:

So that's still relevant today. Oh yeah, more

Janice Porter:

than ever, more than ever. But it seems like you it's okay. So

Janice Porter:

you've got very left brain things, but also right brain

Janice Porter:

things going on. And then I noticed that you were a fencer

Janice Porter:

in university,

Tim Ash:

yeah, I've been known to swing a saber or two, yeah,

Tim Ash:

and

Janice Porter:

that you do painting and write poetry and

Janice Porter:

all. That's very right brain. So that's why I say I feel like

Janice Porter:

you're like a renaissance man.

Tim Ash:

Oh, well, thank you. I like and by the way, that whole

Tim Ash:

left brain, right brain thing is one of the things I shoot down

Tim Ash:

in my unleash your primal brain book. That's basically bullshit.

Tim Ash:

The brain's fairly symmetric, and then the two sides are

Tim Ash:

connected by a super highway that that keeps them in really

Tim Ash:

good context. So there's no such thing as logical people and

Tim Ash:

creative people. In fact, the first chapter of that book is

Tim Ash:

called The Lie of rationality. We can't make rational

Tim Ash:

decisions. And I mean that literally, they've studied

Tim Ash:

people who had various kinds of brain damage. The rational brain

Tim Ash:

gives you information and options. The prioritization, the

Tim Ash:

actual decisions that are made are always emotional and

Tim Ash:

instinctual, is basically whatever gives you the strongest

Tim Ash:

response, as the brain is, doesn't like to work really

Tim Ash:

hard, the default response to the brain is, do nothing. Just

Tim Ash:

keep doing whatever you're doing. Do nothing. Don't expend

Tim Ash:

energy. Don't expect thought, don't move the body. So for the

Tim Ash:

brain to do something, it has to feel really strongly about

Tim Ash:

something. And all of those infinite options you have in

Tim Ash:

front of you, they're reduced down to what's the one that gets

Tim Ash:

the most strong emotional reaction

Janice Porter:

is that, like me always saying, I go with my gut,

Tim Ash:

yeah, yeah, the gut ball there's, there's actually a

Tim Ash:

nexus of neurons around your your brain and your intestines

Tim Ash:

that is kind of like a secondary little brain. They're learning

Tim Ash:

much more about that now, but that's exactly it so well. I

Tim Ash:

mean, it's literally, you cannot make a rational decision.

Tim Ash:

There's no such thing.

Janice Porter:

Wow. So I mean, there, I'm thinking about, you

Janice Porter:

know, all those cliches about people say that people buy with

Janice Porter:

emotion and they, what do they say? They something with logic.

Janice Porter:

They

Tim Ash:

Yeah, well, I think that Robert Heinlein, one of my

Tim Ash:

favorite science fiction authors, he had a quote that

Tim Ash:

said, people don't make rational people are not a rational

Tim Ash:

animal. They're a rationalizing animal. So what happens is, you

Tim Ash:

can see this on brain scan. Someone makes an instinctual

Tim Ash:

decision, or an emotional decision, and then a few seconds

Tim Ash:

later, or a few fractions of a second later, if you ask them,

Tim Ash:

Why did you make that decision, then the language parts of the

Tim Ash:

brain kick in, and basically you come up with the alibi. But the

Tim Ash:

alibi is never the reason you actually did something. It's the

Tim Ash:

rationalization for it. Okay? And I know I'm kind of like, no,

Tim Ash:

no. I way off roading.

Janice Porter:

And. This? No, you're not, because you asked, I

Janice Porter:

think you've asked, answered this question you've written

Janice Porter:

about. And hold that book up, the primal brain book, because

Tim Ash:

that's the first so this was my previous book,

Tim Ash:

right? Unleash your primal brain. Well, brain, okay, and

Tim Ash:

that's defying how we think and why we act. That's the subtitle,

Tim Ash:

okay?

Janice Porter:

So you're saying that primal brain drives

Janice Porter:

behavior, and you've just sort of explained how it works,

Janice Porter:

correct in a simple way.

Tim Ash:

You mentioned evolutionary psychology earlier.

Tim Ash:

I think most people aren't even familiar with the term. So if I

Tim Ash:

can give you a quick 411 basically, the idea is that we

Tim Ash:

evolved over time, and there are things that we share with the

Tim Ash:

most primitive forms of life on Earth, like insects have

Tim Ash:

dopamine? Well, dopamine is just a way to decide what to use your

Tim Ash:

energy on and how to chase goals. We all share that. And

Tim Ash:

then there are things that we layered on top of that, that we

Tim Ash:

got from other mammals. And then there are things at the end of

Tim Ash:

that evolutionary arc that make us bizarrely and uniquely human,

Tim Ash:

and why we've taken over the whole planet. So if you really

Tim Ash:

want to understand human behavior, you have to understand

Tim Ash:

that whole arc of evolution and where we picked up various

Tim Ash:

things. So evolutionary psychology explains things based

Tim Ash:

on that. So I described the unleash your primal brain is

Tim Ash:

basically the user manual for being human. It's it's the

Tim Ash:

things that all 8 billion of us on the planet share.

Tim Ash:

Okay, so do you Okay?

Janice Porter:

So let's, let's bring in the new book so we can

Janice Porter:

just see that cover. Oh, sure.

Tim Ash:

This is the latest book I wrote with the brilliant Dr

Tim Ash:

lemoir Gottlieb, and it's called Primal dating. Yeah,

Janice Porter:

tell me about that. What's the subtitle of

Janice Porter:

that one? The unflinching

Tim Ash:

evolutionary psychology guide to modern relationships.

Tim Ash:

So it's actually not a dating book. Rather, 10, 15% of it has

Tim Ash:

some practical stuff for people that are actively dating, but

Tim Ash:

it's more of a Women Are From Mars. Men Are From Venus.

Tim Ash:

Update, or rather, no offense to John Gray, but his stuff wasn't

Tim Ash:

very scientifically based. So this is from an evolutionary

Tim Ash:

psychology it looks at male and female relationships, what we

Tim Ash:

evolved each other for, non monogamy, jealousy, all these

Tim Ash:

kinds of things, and then how the modern world distorts it.

Tim Ash:

And then we have very practical guides for mindsets and

Tim Ash:

strategies for both men and women to do better with each

Tim Ash:

other. So it's basically peel back all those cultural layers

Tim Ash:

that we operate from and understand us at kind of the

Tim Ash:

species, psychological, biological level, what our

Tim Ash:

tendencies are, why we act the way we do, without putting those

Tim Ash:

value judgments on top of it.

Janice Porter:

So when you're working in a business

Janice Porter:

environment and and working with, you know, executives or

Janice Porter:

managers or even just entrepreneurs, you know,

Janice Porter:

business owners. Are you going in and talking about how to deal

Janice Porter:

with men versus women, women versus men? Are you teaching

Janice Porter:

like are you? Do you look at the best ways to influence one or

Janice Porter:

the other and still be ethical and things like that?

Tim Ash:

Well, the the primal dating book is really for

Tim Ash:

interpersonal relationships. Okay, so it's it's just designed

Tim Ash:

for that. When I consult my the way that I normally engage, I

Tim Ash:

work with senior executives at companies, and it's called an

Tim Ash:

Executive Advisory essentially, I'm unlimited on call for a

Tim Ash:

senior executive. Oh, right range of stuff that we cover is

Tim Ash:

definitely online marketing. I mean, I literally wrote a few

Tim Ash:

books on it and ran conferences and made 1.2 billion for our

Tim Ash:

clients based on this kind of neuromarketing stuff, we also

Tim Ash:

cover a culture branding, personal purpose of the leaders,

Tim Ash:

how to get loyalty from your employees and build a really

Tim Ash:

strong core culture. One of the things that I work with

Tim Ash:

executives on is, for example, the what I call the initiated

Tim Ash:

tribe, how to reliably get people to be both productive and

Tim Ash:

passionate about their work, and back in the day, again, on the

Tim Ash:

Serengeti a couple of 100,000 years ago, that was automatic.

Tim Ash:

But nowadays, you need to recreate intentional initiation

Tim Ash:

environments that will mimic those elements, and that works

Tim Ash:

for any human tribe, in other words, whatever cultural package

Tim Ash:

you want to bond around. It could be a book club. It could

Tim Ash:

be a high performance company, delete military unit, religious

Tim Ash:

cult. It doesn't really matter. The mechanics by which we bond

Tim Ash:

are the same, modeling by the leaders, peer pressure,

Tim Ash:

synchronized group activities and overcoming meaningful

Tim Ash:

challenges together,

Janice Porter:

okay, but now I have to go in a place that I

Janice Porter:

didn't want to go, but it's such a perfect example, and that is

Janice Porter:

the American political scene. You know, you get that, that

Janice Porter:

leader that isn't really an ethical i. Leader, but in my

Janice Porter:

opinion, but putting people into, you know, he wants them to

Janice Porter:

be loyal and and they, if they're not, they're out, you

Janice Porter:

know, like,

Tim Ash:

but, yeah, right, you touched on on a couple of really

Tim Ash:

important things there. So the first is, I didn't say it's for

Tim Ash:

the greater good. I said that's those are built in instincts

Tim Ash:

that work with anyone in any situation. So if you apply all

Tim Ash:

four of those ideas, modeling by the leaders, like you have

Tim Ash:

something I want, there's a lot of people. Every political

Tim Ash:

leader kind of embody something they want from them. That's the

Tim Ash:

reason to follow the leader. Then peer pressure, seeing how

Tim Ash:

other people in your cultural tribe act, synchronize group

Tim Ash:

activities, you find that all the time in politics and other

Tim Ash:

settings and overcoming meaningful challenges and

Tim Ash:

struggling together, that's really kind of the final proof

Tim Ash:

that whatever cultural package you're adopting has value,

Tim Ash:

because it's effective and it allows you to overcome adversity

Tim Ash:

and challenges. So those, again, those four elements of an

Tim Ash:

intentional initiation are, if you combine them, you can

Tim Ash:

reliably get people to bond to whatever group you're in. And

Tim Ash:

I'm not advocating whether the cultural package they're trying

Tim Ash:

to promulgate is a good one. Okay, this can be used for for

Tim Ash:

evil, but it's the point is, understanding human nature

Tim Ash:

allows you to consciously build better ideally, you know,

Tim Ash:

ethically and positively better organizations, whether they're

Tim Ash:

communities or companies.

Janice Porter:

So can you,

Janice Porter:

can you share, perhaps, a story about a company exec that you've

Janice Porter:

worked with, obviously no names, but just an idea of how you

Janice Porter:

take, helped them take their company from, from where they

Janice Porter:

were to one that embodies those, those

Tim Ash:

elements that you talked about? Yeah, well, so I

Tim Ash:

just mentioned one part of the initiated tribe framework, which

Tim Ash:

is intentional initiations. It actually has two parts before

Tim Ash:

that, which is the personal purpose of the leader. That's

Tim Ash:

the foundational stuff, then creating a core culture, and

Tim Ash:

then consciously initiating new employees or vendors, partners

Tim Ash:

into that, or customers even that's the intentional

Tim Ash:

initiation, the four elements that I just mentioned within

Tim Ash:

that, so the first so I'll give you an example. I had one, one

Tim Ash:

executive. He was a CEO of a company, and he was really

Tim Ash:

driven. No surprise, a lot of entrepreneurs are and but he

Tim Ash:

was, I said, like, what's your personal purpose? And he goes,

Tim Ash:

Well, I'm going to be retired by 40 with the 25 million in the

Tim Ash:

bank, and, you know, all this kind of stuff. I said, that's

Tim Ash:

not a purpose for two reasons. One is, it's a goal. If it can

Tim Ash:

be achieved, it's not your purpose, right? Right? That, and

Tim Ash:

that's a really important distinction. So there are a lot

Tim Ash:

of goal driven people in entrepreneurship and leadership,

Tim Ash:

but that's not the same as being purpose driven. And by the way,

Tim Ash:

purpose isn't some softy thing. I mean, I'm in California here,

Tim Ash:

you know, it's like, oh, that's, that's your granola stuff in

Tim Ash:

California. No, purpose is highly correlated with with

Tim Ash:

health span, with financial success, with good

Tim Ash:

relationships, personal and professional relationships, so

Tim Ash:

it's really kind of a turbo boost. If you don't have it,

Tim Ash:

then that's a problem.

Janice Porter:

Well, does it need to involve something bigger

Janice Porter:

than yourself, though? Does it purpose?

Tim Ash:

Yes, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. You're, you're,

Tim Ash:

you're, you've obviously got the Cliff Notes version.

Janice Porter:

No, I just, that's

Tim Ash:

just, yeah, no, so that's exactly. So the first

Tim Ash:

thing I told him is, like, you know, you have a goal, not a

Tim Ash:

purpose. So you need a purpose. The second thing he told me,

Tim Ash:

Well, is my purpose is to build this company. Blah, blah, blah.

Tim Ash:

And I said, That's not big enough. What is your purpose on

Tim Ash:

this planet for this lifetime, whether you believe in

Tim Ash:

additional lifetimes or not? I don't know if you're, you know,

Tim Ash:

a Buddhist or whatever, but it can't be as small as I want to

Tim Ash:

build a company. By the way, I've done a lot of personal

Tim Ash:

development work, and through an initiation, through the mankind

Tim Ash:

project, which, by the way, I highly recommend to any man.

Tim Ash:

I've developed two purposes, one is positive, one is negative,

Tim Ash:

and happy to share my own

Tim Ash:

with you, if you like. Oh, wow. Okay,

Tim Ash:

so my my positive purpose is i co create a world of peace,

Tim Ash:

safety and love through joyous expression and service.

Tim Ash:

Beautiful. That's my bag. And is that something I'm ever going to

Tim Ash:

achieve? No, that's the North Star you're shooting for, right?

Tim Ash:

You,

Janice Porter:

but it, it, it guides everything else you do.

Janice Porter:

Yeah.

Tim Ash:

So the way I describe a purpose, it's. A so it embodies

Tim Ash:

a values hierarchy. It's a decision making tool,

Tim Ash:

ultimately. And it's really important not to have something

Tim Ash:

vague or something really long winded with right, like a full

Tim Ash:

paragraph, if you can get it down in a sentence or two, then

Tim Ash:

it's an operative tool when. So when I invest energy into

Tim Ash:

something, I say it's a hell yes or it's a no. You know, there's

Tim Ash:

not much in between these days. And so is it alignment with my

Tim Ash:

positive purpose or not? Right? And so again, I think Victor

Tim Ash:

Frank old man, search for meaning. You know, I think

Tim Ash:

everybody needs to come up with a personal meaning and purpose.

Tim Ash:

So

Janice Porter:

I'm guessing that this CEO that you worked with,

Janice Porter:

who I'm also guessing was quite young, because you said by the

Janice Porter:

time he was 40 he wanted

Tim Ash:

Yeah, he was in his mid 30s, yeah. So how long

Janice Porter:

did it take him to get it?

Tim Ash:

This was the hardest part, I have to say, not because

Tim Ash:

of the length of time it took, but with the violence with which

Tim Ash:

people react to it, they resist it. They don't want to go that

Tim Ash:

deep. They don't they don't want to live an examined life and the

Tim Ash:

time for that kind of, yeah, that's that soft skills. I'm not

Tim Ash:

interested. Yes, that's the mentality. It's like, it's not

Tim Ash:

on my dashboard, right? Yeah, that's exactly the point of it.

Tim Ash:

Yeah, yeah. So, so it was, it wasn't that it took a long time.

Tim Ash:

It took about three, four months to finally solidify a clear

Tim Ash:

purpose for that particular man, but it was a lot of resistance

Tim Ash:

along the way, and then the rest really flowed easily. So step

Tim Ash:

one is personal purpose. Step two is creating that core

Tim Ash:

culture. And the task there is, there's a tension between

Tim Ash:

keeping it compact, so you can transmit it to other people and

Tim Ash:

making sure it's complete. So that's the tension for a core

Tim Ash:

culture. It's not just that thing you have on your, you

Tim Ash:

know, behind the receptionist desk at your company. It's like

Tim Ash:

our, you know, it's nothing like that. It's it's something that

Tim Ash:

includes language, technology, values, organization, all of it

Tim Ash:

tied into a tight bundle, and that takes a long time, because

Tim Ash:

you have to machete it down and make it compact. That's the

Tim Ash:

hardest part, since you brought up politics, can I give you a

Tim Ash:

quick example? Okay, so here is a core culture that I can define

Tim Ash:

in four elements that unifies 10s of millions of people in the

Tim Ash:

US. Okay, white evangelical Christian, individual rights,

Tim Ash:

gun ownership, yeah. Okay. We all know what I'm naming, yeah,

Tim Ash:

and regardless of whether you're violently against or really Pro,

Tim Ash:

the point is that Republicans are, let's call it the Maga wing

Tim Ash:

of the Republican Party punches above their political weight

Tim Ash:

precisely because they have such a compact core culture. It's

Tim Ash:

really easy to transmit. It's really easy to motivate other

Tim Ash:

people with it. And so it's like, what's that joke? I think

Tim Ash:

Will Rogers once famously quipped that, I'm not a member

Tim Ash:

of any organized political party. I'm a Democrat, right? So

Tim Ash:

in contrast, you think of all the isms on the you know, the

Tim Ash:

umbrella coalition under the Democratic side. They're very

Tim Ash:

universal, but everyone's got their own little niche inside of

Tim Ash:

it. So how do you transmit this giant elephant of a corporate or

Tim Ash:

a tribal culture to others? It's very hard to do. And so again,

Tim Ash:

that's that's the power of having a very tight and clearly

Tim Ash:

defined corporate culture,

Janice Porter:

actually just using that, and I see that as a

Janice Porter:

very good example or a bad example, however you want to

Janice Porter:

look at it, but which came first the chicken or the egg? Because

Janice Porter:

what? The way I understand it, and I'm Canadian, but I can't

Janice Porter:

help but be drawn into you know that that thing is that the the

Janice Porter:

Republicans were a different whatever before their leader now

Janice Porter:

has came into, you know, to the fight, because that create, I

Janice Porter:

thought it created that Maga group.

Tim Ash:

So, so which is the chicken or the egg? Okay? So I'm

Tim Ash:

not a political analyst. My own feelings are. This has been

Tim Ash:

percolating since 80s, since Reagan, Newt Gingrich, you know,

Tim Ash:

and it's been in the works for 40 years, plus years. So I don't

Tim Ash:

look at it as like, there's definitely people that can

Tim Ash:

capture the moment and energize groups of people that that's

Tim Ash:

certainly been done, but it's an acceleration of an existing

Tim Ash:

process, in my mind, but, but it's a legitimate point. Is like

Tim Ash:

the does the leader make the movement, or does the movement

Tim Ash:

ask for the leader to pop up at a certain moment? I think it's

Tim Ash:

largely the latter. I think that there, there are larger forces

Tim Ash:

in our societies at work. There's a great book called.

Tim Ash:

Fourth turning that was written in the late 90s, and it

Tim Ash:

describes history in these 8200 years historical cycles and

Tim Ash:

predicts that. Well, right now we're in the middle of one

Tim Ash:

crisis period. Well, that that's clearly true.

Janice Porter:

Yeah. It's interesting. I'm following this

Janice Porter:

woman on on Instagram, of all places, and she's really clever

Janice Porter:

about that whole thing and how she's she lives in Europe. She's

Janice Porter:

lived in Europe for 30 years. She's American, she's gorgeous.

Janice Porter:

She speaks a bunch of different languages, and each of her po or

Janice Porter:

whatever you call them, that her videos, that she does, she she

Janice Porter:

likens whatever's going on today in the States. Yesterday, it was

Janice Porter:

the military thing, and or two days ago and was called. She

Janice Porter:

talked today about the enemy within, and she gave examples

Janice Porter:

from Germany, Nazi Germany. She gave an example from Chile, and

Janice Porter:

she gave an example from what was the third one? Oh, no, I

Janice Porter:

can't remember. There were three that she gave and they were all

Janice Porter:

that where someone had called their leader, had talked about

Janice Porter:

the enemy within in their own way, and how it managed in

Janice Porter:

different places. It was really interesting.

Tim Ash:

Yeah, I've always been a student of history, and I

Tim Ash:

really like this, this saying, I heard history may not repeat,

Tim Ash:

but it rhymes. You know, there's, there's these recurring

Tim Ash:

themes that happen in history. And you certainly can learn, you

Tim Ash:

can learn about Caligula at the height of the Roman Empire and

Tim Ash:

apply 75% of that to our current situation, you know. So I do

Tim Ash:

believe that they're larger stories and cycles of human

Tim Ash:

nature that are that are built into history, and we we ignore

Tim Ash:

them at our own peril.

Janice Porter:

Yeah, yeah, okay, so, so completely in a different

Janice Porter:

way than I said. I'm happy to go. I love it. No, I love it

Janice Porter:

because you're a fascinating, interesting man to talk to. And

Janice Porter:

I could it, could go any which way. That's true. There was

Janice Porter:

something else though that came to mind. So I do want to ask

Janice Porter:

you, though, because I find this fascinating and the difference

Janice Porter:

between and this one of my questions that's now out of

Janice Porter:

sync, so whatever, it's just coming from left field. Okay, so

Janice Porter:

my question is about the the difference between the line

Janice Porter:

between influence and manipulation. Is it about

Janice Porter:

intention, outcome or something else? Now this probably goes

Janice Porter:

back to what you were used to be doing, right?

Tim Ash:

Because, yeah. Well, I mean, yeah. So I apply. I ran an

Tim Ash:

agency called Site tuners. We were one of the first conversion

Tim Ash:

rate optimization agencies I mentioned, and we created over

Tim Ash:

1.2 billion in value for the expedias, Googles, Facebooks and

Tim Ash:

smaller companies of the world. And most of it was due to these

Tim Ash:

durable neuromarketing principles. So one thing before

Tim Ash:

I answer your question, I want to say is, like, I don't care

Tim Ash:

about the technology. I don't care about AI, I don't care

Tim Ash:

about virtual reality. I don't care if it's I know what

Tim Ash:

hologram suppositories tomorrow, whatever the technology is going

Tim Ash:

to be. We're still trying to influence the human brain,

Janice Porter:

right? And it's still about people, right? Yeah.

Tim Ash:

And by the way, and on that note, again, back to

Tim Ash:

evolutionary psychology. We stopped evolving. So if you take

Tim Ash:

the 10,000 generations that it took us to evolve as modern

Tim Ash:

humans, we're essentially unchanged over that time. What's

Tim Ash:

happened in the last two or three or five generations

Tim Ash:

doesn't matter. We're essentially flies in amber. We

Tim Ash:

stopped evolving. And we have to take these brains that were

Tim Ash:

designed for tribes of a few dozen people on the plains of

Tim Ash:

East Africa, and apply them to this civilization of overlapping

Tim Ash:

tribes with a billion people on the

Janice Porter:

planet. Oh, interesting. Never thought of

Janice Porter:

that. Yeah.

Tim Ash:

So I look at to me wisdom as I get older is things

Tim Ash:

that are effective in more situations that are durable

Tim Ash:

across time, and that's what I look for. I don't look at little

Tim Ash:

fads or gimmicks or or tricks. And so to me, evolutionary

Tim Ash:

psychology has been that deep. Well, that's why I people

Tim Ash:

started recently calling me, and I think I'm going to adopt it

Tim Ash:

primal Tim, because it whether you're applying it to your

Tim Ash:

wellness, to your relationships, to your marketing, to your

Tim Ash:

company culture, it's still all applications of evolutionary

Tim Ash:

psychology, okay, okay, but I'd happy to answer your question.

Janice Porter:

Okay, so, so the question was the line between

Janice Porter:

influence and manipulation,

Tim Ash:

and I thought about this a lot. I think that

Tim Ash:

everybody who's any kind of in any influence position has to

Tim Ash:

really be grounded in ethics. Everybody. You may have a

Tim Ash:

different moral codes, whatever that is for you, but I don't.

Tim Ash:

Certainly political leaders are lacking that often right now.

Tim Ash:

Uh, company leaders, also and and certainly marketers. I think

Tim Ash:

Seth Godin one of his books, the title was, all marketers are

Tim Ash:

liars. And I think that that pretty much captured. I remember

Tim Ash:

when we were working with a client once they had to comply.

Tim Ash:

It was a regulated financial product, and on this landing

Tim Ash:

page to sign up for it, they have to have a disclaimer, and

Tim Ash:

it had to be above the button. So what they asked us to do was

Tim Ash:

to put it in the header of the page so it was technically above

Tim Ash:

the button, but visually completely not connected to it

Tim Ash:

anymore. They were hiding it and, you know, and we lost a

Tim Ash:

client over that, we said, No, that's ethically. That's our

Tim Ash:

line. You know, we're not going to do that. So you have to stand

Tim Ash:

for something. I think you can have different ethical

Tim Ash:

frameworks, but you have to be honest to your framework.

Janice Porter:

So do you that? Did you then, after that

Janice Porter:

experience, did you check that ethical level before you took on

Janice Porter:

the next

Tim Ash:

clients? Well, we don't take on clients that ask us.

Tim Ash:

When I ran my agency, by the way, I sold it, and I'm focusing

Tim Ash:

on keynote speaking in this Executive Advisory I mentioned,

Tim Ash:

but we would just feel out clients. It's whenever you have

Tim Ash:

an agency relationship, it's kind of a two way. No assholes

Tim Ash:

rule, you know? And so we always had a trial period, easy out, no

Tim Ash:

problem. And that's true of my executive advisories too,

Tim Ash:

because I don't want to spend my life with anyone who's not

Tim Ash:

ethical or high integrity,

Janice Porter:

yeah, yeah, of course. I know it's and, yeah,

Janice Porter:

there's so much out there now that you have to be so aware of,

Janice Porter:

sorry, somebody just having a phone now is worse than having

Janice Porter:

just or having a watch that's buzzing at me anyway. So do you

Janice Porter:

ever come across I don't know. I'm thinking about, I'm thinking

Janice Porter:

about a lot of, okay, I'm going to back my question up first and

Janice Porter:

say, Do you pay much attention to LinkedIn? Do you look at the

Janice Porter:

news feed on LinkedIn. Ever

Tim Ash:

I do, I keep an eye on it. I basically LinkedIn is my

Tim Ash:

primary and Facebook is more for my personal stuff. Okay, so

Janice Porter:

follow any particular leaders on LinkedIn,

Janice Porter:

maybe

Tim Ash:

for thought leadership or news No, I have my own

Tim Ash:

sources for that kind of stuff. It's just, well, sometimes you

Tim Ash:

get random stuff through the feed that looks somewhat

Tim Ash:

interesting, but no, I don't spend a lot of extra time on

Tim Ash:

LinkedIn. I use it functionally to connect with people. And so,

Tim Ash:

right,

Janice Porter:

okay, fair enough. I was just curious

Janice Porter:

because I see a lot of entrepreneurial leaders that are

Janice Porter:

now, like, there's a few in my head that I'm thinking of that I

Janice Porter:

know of their companies, and I've seen their companies, you

Janice Porter:

know, grow, and now they're becoming the thought leader to

Janice Porter:

help other entrepreneurs, right, okay? And I think that's great,

Janice Porter:

but I also see some heads getting really big and right and

Janice Porter:

getting beyond that sort of, I don't have time to talk to the

Janice Porter:

little guy anymore. So you know there's, there's that. And I

Janice Porter:

wonder if you notice any people that you know you've worked with

Janice Porter:

or that you've watched come up that things change that way for

Janice Porter:

people.

Tim Ash:

Well, I think that's, that's, I don't necessarily see

Tim Ash:

that as a bad thing, and we you just made a value judgment,

Tim Ash:

like, I don't have time for the little people. But if you reach

Tim Ash:

a certain level of acclaim or fame or people wanting to

Tim Ash:

impinge on you, let's put it most neutrally, okay, then you

Tim Ash:

have to put up some barriers and defenses to that, and that may

Tim Ash:

look like asshole ish behavior again, pardon my dropping the

Tim Ash:

swear words all the time, but that if you're going to be

Tim Ash:

standoffish, that's the that's the level of defense you

Tim Ash:

apparently need, given the volume of stuff inbound to you.

Tim Ash:

So yes, I have seen people go up that popularity arc and then

Tim Ash:

become more difficult to reach absolutely,

Janice Porter:

yeah, I don't know. I just, I guess that makes

Janice Porter:

it does make sense. Logically, it makes sense. There's just

Janice Porter:

times when I think that it's a shame that they've changed, or

Janice Porter:

the perception is changed of them, and I don't know, it just,

Tim Ash:

you know, it's, I think it's counterbalance, especially

Tim Ash:

at my stage of life, by wanting to mentor. It's one of the

Tim Ash:

things I talk about in Unleash your primal brain, where we have

Tim Ash:

something different from mammals, not just dominance, but

Tim Ash:

this desire for prestige, which is tied to transmitting culture.

Tim Ash:

That's our story. Power. And so when you get older and you've

Tim Ash:

gathered wisdom or skills or whatever you want, to pass that

Tim Ash:

on, and you're rewarded psychologically for mentoring

Tim Ash:

people and helping other people. So there are things I'll give

Tim Ash:

away my time. I'm actually going to staff a women's initiation

Tim Ash:

retreat later this month. You know, that's just four, four

Tim Ash:

days of my life, plus a bunch of zoom meetings for the training

Tim Ash:

in the staff to be coherent that I'm never going to get back. But

Tim Ash:

that's my giveaway. And so I think that when you're when you

Tim Ash:

get more popular, if you will. Yeah, you still have to filter

Tim Ash:

how you spend your time, and that's legitimate, but I try to

Tim Ash:

spend more time on my purpose. And that's not to say that

Tim Ash:

everybody does. That's my approach. Yeah,

Janice Porter:

I know that's true. So how much of your time

Janice Porter:

have you spent doing personal development? Was it more now

Janice Porter:

when you have more time, or was it all the way through?

Tim Ash:

I think it went in spurts, and the only thing

Tim Ash:

that's ever motivated me to become a better human is pain.

Tim Ash:

So as bad as this sounds like, it's like the other story about

Tim Ash:

the old dog, though, would be waking up out of its sleep and

Tim Ash:

going every few minutes, and turned out it was laying on a

Tim Ash:

nail when you and you ask, Why didn't it move? Well, I guess it

Tim Ash:

didn't hurt bad enough. I think life's like that. You get right,

Tim Ash:

you're comfortable. Something comes into focus, and then it

Tim Ash:

becomes more and more uncomfortable. When that becomes

Tim Ash:

unsustainable, that's when you want to change. And so they're

Tim Ash:

briefer periods of significant growth or reposition for the

Tim Ash:

next chapter in your life. Some people keep sleep walking their

Tim Ash:

whole lives through I wasn't exactly early to the party. So

Tim Ash:

like I said, this initiation weekend that I did through the

Tim Ash:

mankind project, I did that in my early 50s. So other periods,

Tim Ash:

like when my dad died in my mid 20s, that I did a lot of soul

Tim Ash:

searching and changing.

Janice Porter:

Now identify. I was in a period of my life when

Janice Porter:

I early on, when I was going through I'd become divorced as

Janice Porter:

and now I was searching. I was a single mom and and there was a

Janice Porter:

friend of mine. He it was a guy. He was a teacher. I was a

Janice Porter:

teacher. And he said he he said to me, and this was part of

Janice Porter:

their their marketing, I'm sure, because I learned over the

Janice Porter:

years, but he said to me, you need to go to this workshop.

Janice Porter:

Here's a ticket, right. Here's a ticket. And it was a three day

Janice Porter:

weekend, and it was a personal growth webinar, seminar, or

Janice Porter:

whatever. And I'm not sure who looked after my baby or my child

Janice Porter:

at the time. I can't remember now, but it was at a time when I

Janice Porter:

was in pain that I needed to do that right. And then I've done

Janice Porter:

others over the years, and I'm sure there was something I was

Janice Porter:

searching for too at the time, but I do love personal

Janice Porter:

development, so, you know, that's the other thing. So not

Janice Porter:

everybody does those things or or, you know, takes the time to

Janice Porter:

know what they're all about. And so they poo poo them and things

Janice Porter:

like that.

Tim Ash:

If there was any advice I could give them, my kids,

Tim Ash:

they're 18 and 20, so they're taking advice currently from

Tim Ash:

dad. Just want to make that clear. I know everything, yeah,

Tim Ash:

of course, but I would say it's the thing to invest in, is

Tim Ash:

understanding yourself, your nature, your character, how

Tim Ash:

you're changing, paying attention all that, and that's

Tim Ash:

where you get the richer life. Going out there and focusing on

Tim Ash:

the world is actually counterproductive.

Janice Porter:

There's a book that I remember someone gave me

Janice Porter:

when my daughter was going through some stuff in her in her

Janice Porter:

early 20s, and was by Meg, J,

Janice Porter:

what was it called?

Janice Porter:

Oh, it had a great name too. She has a she has a TED talk about

Janice Porter:

it. It was something about your 20. Oh, I gotta. I'll have to

Janice Porter:

find it. It's kind of like what you do in your 20s sets you up

Janice Porter:

for your whole life. So do it right? You know, don't do

Janice Porter:

something you'd be regret. And she's a psychologist, and she

Janice Porter:

had different stories in that book. I'm gonna find it, because

Janice Porter:

it'll annoy me that I can't remember the name, but sure,

Janice Porter:

yeah, but anyway, there's so much that I'm just going to

Janice Porter:

stall because I can, and I want to, because the book was really

Janice Porter:

good, and you got kids going into that her TED talk. Why 30

Janice Porter:

is not the new 20 is her TED Talk. And she's a clinical

Janice Porter:

psychologist, and this was a while ago, but her book came

Janice Porter:

from that too. And I can't find the name of the book, The 20

Janice Porter:

something treatment, a revolutionary remedy. That's a

Janice Porter:

new one, I guess. But anyway, yeah, Meg. Jay. She's very,

Janice Porter:

very, I'll look her up. Yeah, she's very interesting. So tell

Janice Porter:

me something else from Primal dating that my audience needs to

Janice Porter:

know, that you know that relates to business today.

Tim Ash:

Well, relationships. Yeah, relationships. Now your

Tim Ash:

shows titled relationships. For many entrepreneurs, the most

Tim Ash:

important relationship you'll ever have is the intimate

Tim Ash:

relationship that's the foundation for everything else.

Tim Ash:

Either you're supported or you're undercut by what's

Tim Ash:

happening at home. There's no avoiding it. And so I think that

Tim Ash:

your choice of partner, what kind of situation you're in, the

Tim Ash:

stability of it, the value of it, is really critical. And so

Tim Ash:

again, in this book, one of the things that we talk about is

Tim Ash:

that people evolve for complementary needs. It's not

Tim Ash:

optional. Like, from an evolutionary standpoint, you

Tim Ash:

kind of sort into roughly equal pairs. You have children, and

Tim Ash:

hopefully to the point that they're mature enough to have

Tim Ash:

their own children. That's the game. Nothing. There's nothing

Tim Ash:

in there about happiness or the form that that takes, or

Tim Ash:

anything else

Janice Porter:

that's changed a lot. Well, no, it's

Tim Ash:

so again, from an evolutionary standpoint, it

Tim Ash:

hasn't at all. That's the point. So we have what we evolved for.

Tim Ash:

That's part one of the book. The second part is how modern

Tim Ash:

society has distorted that and made things a lot worse. And

Tim Ash:

then we have a guide for men from the women's perspective and

Tim Ash:

vice versa. And I think we suggest you read the whole book

Tim Ash:

so you'll get more self knowledge and understand the

Tim Ash:

other sex better. But one of the keys is that no one's going to

Tim Ash:

win the gender war. I mean, I don't care if you're one of

Tim Ash:

these red pill goblins in the manosphere talking about, you

Tim Ash:

know, pickup tricks, or if you're a feminist shock Trooper

Tim Ash:

talking about how you don't need a man and the patriarchy and

Tim Ash:

this stuff, that's all cultural stuff. No one wins the gender

Tim Ash:

war. If one side wins, the human race is done. And that's what we

Tim Ash:

have. Is a crisis in relationship formation, crazy

Tim Ash:

amounts of mental illness, suicidality, radical politics,

Tim Ash:

all of that stuff is actually the after I wrote the book, I

Tim Ash:

realized how deeply the rabbit hole goes. It's really

Tim Ash:

civilizational level things that are happening right now, and

Tim Ash:

they're tied to this, guy, the deep need to connect, and the

Tim Ash:

misfiring of it in our society.

Janice Porter:

Yeah, that's pretty sad, isn't it? Really, I

Janice Porter:

know, because you there's so many, I mean, my generation

Janice Porter:

kids, a lot of them aren't having kids, yep, you know. So,

Janice Porter:

I mean, the balance is off right now. I think, yeah,

Tim Ash:

yeah. In our lifetime, the world is going to slip into

Tim Ash:

the same rapid exponential growth that took our species

Tim Ash:

from, you know, a million on this planet to 8 billion. Yeah,

Tim Ash:

in a few 1000 years, is going to reverse. Because right now,

Tim Ash:

pretty much every part of the world, and with a few

Tim Ash:

exceptions, are below fertility replacement rates. So the math,

Tim Ash:

you know, works in reverse just as well as going up. Yeah, and

Tim Ash:

we don't have a model for that world. We don't have a

Tim Ash:

communism, fascism, capitalism. None of that works in a society

Tim Ash:

where you have a lot of older people and not many young

Tim Ash:

people, right?

Janice Porter:

Fascinating discussion, totally off the side

Janice Porter:

of what I was going to talk about. But I so appreciate that

Janice Porter:

we could have this conversation and that we could that you, that

Janice Porter:

you were flexible, and also that I was, you know, I really

Janice Porter:

appreciated the time with you, and I'd like you to hold your

Janice Porter:

books up again, because I think that that from our conversation,

Janice Porter:

it makes it much more relevant for people to go and read those

Janice Porter:

books, because you are a clever guy, and there's some

Janice Porter:

interesting conversation starters in that. Well, thank

Tim Ash:

you. I appreciate your kind words. So the easy so if

Tim Ash:

you were interested in the prime unleash your primal brain. Kind

Tim Ash:

of the user manual for human beings that's at primal

Tim Ash:

brain.com? Right? Primal dating? Is it primal dating.com? Of

Tim Ash:

course, you can get them on Amazon or wherever books are

Tim Ash:

sold. And then if you just want to reach out to me about public

Tim Ash:

speaking or find out more about my Executive Advisory, that's

Tim Ash:

just that. Tim ash.com, and of course, on LinkedIn, as I

Tim Ash:

mentioned, that's where I do hang out for Yeah, feel free to

Tim Ash:

connect

Janice Porter:

there totally and I thank you so much for spending

Janice Porter:

your time with us. I do ask my listeners to check out your

Janice Porter:

information, your books and your website, and I'll put those in

Janice Porter:

the show notes for sure. And one last thing, just remember to

Janice Porter:

stay connected and be remembered.

Tim Ash:

Amen to that.

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About the Podcast

Relationships Rule
It’s always about Relationships!
Imagine that 68% of our clients leave because they feel we don’t care. Then visualize having authentic heart-based retention strategies, proven to minimize client losses, while organically generating a substantial number of loyal clients through referrals.

Catch a glimpse of how Janice opens a conversation by applying her fine-tuned curiosity. Notice how genuinely interested she is in building a relationship with her guests – heart-based business owners and entrepreneurs. In mere minutes, guests generously share their most sweet and powerful retention systems that you can adopt today!

As a seasoned relationship marketing specialist, Janice invites us to listen in weekly, as she reveals how to nurture and build relationships in real-time.

The Relationships Rule podcast’s aim, is to help you naturally ease your networking fears, so you can adopt strategies that amplify your client list, because the facts are, that today, success is built on a foundation of strong relationships. You can relax now, knowing you can activate your relationship marketing plan, by simply tuning in to Relationships Rule each week.

About your host

Profile picture for Janice Porter

Janice Porter

I began my career as a teacher, was a corporate trainer for many years, and have now found my niche in coaching business owners to network at a world-class level.
My passion is working with motivated people, who are coachable and who want to build their businesses through relationship marketing and networking (offline & online). I help my clients create retention strategies, grow through referrals, and create loyal customers by staying connected.