A Digital Marketing Wake Up Call - REPLAY - | RR270
An Inc. 500 CEO - Co-founder of Civilis Consulting - author of Clicksand - Bill Troy is our amazing guest for today’s episode. He is a sought-after speaker on alternative perspectives, having helped global brands like Sony, Disney, and Nestle find new market opportunities for over 25 years.
Bill is a Contrarian – and takes a unique approach to the power of building authentic relationships in a crowded digital world.
In this episode you will learn:
- Online marketers actually don't use online marketing.
- Your best and biggest sales come from human interaction and relationships.
- An interesting little sales anecdote – and a lesson in sales
- You've got to trust your gut: it's there for a reason.
You can find Bill at: https://www.civilisconsulting.com/
In appreciation for being here, I have some gifts for you:
A LinkedIn Checklist for setting up your fully optimized Profile:
An opportunity to test drive the Follow Up system I recommend by taking the
3 Card Sampler – you won’t regret it.
AND … Don’t forget to connect with me on LinkedIn and be eligible for my
complimentary LinkedIn profile audit – I do one each month for a lucky
listener!
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Transcript
Hi, everyone, and welcome to the relationships
Janice Porter:rule podcast. I'm your host, Janice Porter. And my special
Janice Porter:guest this week is Bill Troy. Welcome to the show, Bill. So
Janice Porter:thank you. So I've had the privilege and pleasure of
Janice Porter:interviewing Bill's co founder in his company and wife, Kim, on
Janice Porter:my podcast just recently, and I hadn't met Bill before. And I
Janice Porter:started looking into what he was all about, and decided that I
Janice Porter:needed to talk to him too. And he kindly offered or agreed to
Janice Porter:come on the podcast, because Bill wrote a book called click
Janice Porter:sand. First of all, I love the name. Second of all, the the add
Janice Porter:on to that is cliques, and how online marketing will destroy
Janice Porter:your business. And the unlikely secret to saving and is that
Janice Porter:part of the Yes,
Bill Troy:yes. Right. The publisher said you can't just
Bill Troy:leave it with a like a negative like that. Exactly. Right. And,
Janice Porter:and so just the first thing that I want to say
Janice Porter:to you is contrarian, people are contrarian. So talk to me about
Janice Porter:that, because I think I'm a bit on your side with this. So do
Janice Porter:share, please.
Bill Troy:Well, I will contrarian is just challenging
Bill Troy:the status quo. You know, it probably started when I was a
Bill Troy:kid probably started, you know, in school, every teacher go,
Bill Troy:Wait a minute. Where'd you get that? Right? Can you prove that?
Bill Troy:So? I just kind of taking on a persona. Yeah, I just I just
Bill Troy:feel like so many people just go along with what everybody says
Bill Troy:it's like,
Janice Porter:yeah. And so you were that kid that always said,
Janice Porter:why? Oh, yeah. Yes. I know, there used to be a kid in my
Janice Porter:math class, back in elementary school. And every time the math
Janice Porter:teacher said something, she had her hand up. But sir, but Sir,
Janice Porter:and I still remember this to this day, because that's exactly
Janice Porter:what she was doing. She was challenging everything that you
Janice Porter:said. And we were in elementary school. So God knows what she
Janice Porter:ended up being but the kind of thing to know. Yeah.
Bill Troy:So I was I was not the polite one to raise my
Bill Troy:hands. I was just in the back of the room making smart aleck
Bill Troy:comments. So same family? Yeah,
Janice Porter:yeah, yeah, exactly. So what I what I tell
Janice Porter:me about cliques and and you know, what started that book.
Janice Porter:And, and I know a little bit, but I want my audience to hear
Bill Troy:from you. So the book really started from an
Bill Troy:interaction we had with an elderly couple who came to
Bill Troy:CIVILUS for marketing help. They had a business, it was an online
Bill Troy:business. And they were spending lots of money on online ads, and
Bill Troy:they were making sales. And they came to us and said, We really
Bill Troy:need that your help to make to make it work to make more money
Bill Troy:to make more sales, and we analyze the business, we
Bill Troy:realized they were losing money on every sale, they were
Bill Troy:spending more to get each sale with the online ads, and they
Bill Troy:were making in profit. And they didn't really understand that
Bill Troy:they were naive, they've been sold a franchise business was
Bill Troy:supposed to be turnkey, was supposed to be their retirement,
Bill Troy:they put everything into it. And they couldn't explain to them
Bill Troy:that this is a trap, this is a negative thing. You there's no
Bill Troy:way out of this, you've been sold a bill of goods. And it was
Bill Troy:just really heartbreaking for us to see people sort of fall for a
Bill Troy:sales pitch like that, and believe that with all their
Bill Troy:heart to need to believe with all their heart, and it's like,
Bill Troy:Okay, enough of this, I'm gonna, you know, I wasn't planning to
Bill Troy:write a book, but it's like, I'm gonna write a book and tell
Bill Troy:people about this. Because there are things about technology is
Bill Troy:great. But there are things about and especially the way
Bill Troy:it's sold and used, that is very destructive. And a lot of people
Bill Troy:don't realize that. And a lot of business owners fall for it and
Bill Troy:end up hurting themselves without realizing. So that's
Bill Troy:what quicksand is out there to stop.
Janice Porter:Yes, it's so true. You say, I know you. I've
Janice Porter:heard you say that. You can't when you can't trust online
Janice Porter:marketing, because even the online marketers sell face to
Janice Porter:face, right?
Bill Troy:Well think about that. Yeah, you've never bought
Bill Troy:online marketing with online marketing. No, I had actually
Bill Troy:one time with a guy who thought I told this anecdote anecdote
Bill Troy:before that was VP of Sales for an online marketing company was
Bill Troy:a local company selling businesses getting local
Bill Troy:businesses on the internet. I said, Well, how you getting
Bill Troy:clients, we have ad sales reps calling on every business in
Bill Troy:town, like do you hear this? What what you're even saying he
Bill Troy:didn't even understand what he was saying. It was He was so
Bill Troy:oblivious, thinking he was helping all these clients like
Bill Troy:it. So online marketers don't use online marketing. And here's
Bill Troy:the here's the funny thing. And it's not just a local agency
Bill Troy:like that. If you do go on and you buy you buy AdWords or you
Bill Troy:buy whatever and these days the big thing is recruiting so you
Bill Troy:sign up for indeed, if your credit card and start getting an
Bill Troy:account, guess what you're gonna get, you're gonna get a phone
Bill Troy:call from a helpful consultant that those companies you know
Bill Troy:what that call titles job is to sell you more to get you to buy
Bill Troy:more clicks, more clicks, they're not there to help you
Bill Troy:fill the position or make sales, they're there to sell clicks.
Bill Troy:And it's going to seem very nice and open and wonderful. But
Bill Troy:beware. So yeah, they don't use that they sell with old school
Bill Troy:relationships and personal. So
Janice Porter:I also I want to ask you about this because I my
Janice Porter:experiences with LinkedIn, and I do LinkedIn training, as you
Janice Porter:know, and I know that I heard you say on on, may have been
Janice Porter:another podcast, that people are not using LinkedIn to increase
Janice Porter:intimacy, but to coerce customers. And, and, and and
Janice Porter:when they use that third party tool, let's say to help them get
Janice Porter:more messages out to more people and connect to more people. It's
Janice Porter:quite often it's about selling them something and pitching them
Janice Porter:as well. And and so I talk to people all the time about you
Janice Porter:know, it's about trying to build a relationship, not sell, sell,
Janice Porter:sell. And so how can you do that when you're using a third party
Janice Porter:tool or an online tool to make those connections and message
Janice Porter:for you? What's your answer to that? What do you say to that?
Janice Porter:Well,
Bill Troy:it's not the tool, any more than it's paper or
Bill Troy:telephone. I mean, you use tools all the time to communicate with
Bill Troy:people, I mean, you don't always aren't always face to face. So
Bill Troy:you do send people notes and letters and emails and
Bill Troy:telephone. So it's not the tool itself, it's how you use the
Bill Troy:tool, and who's teaching you how to use the tool. When someone
Bill Troy:comes to you, you don't say send as many messages, you can do as
Bill Troy:many people as you can, and just 1% of those people don't do that
Bill Troy:sort of thing. So you can do that with paper. I mean, one of
Bill Troy:the anecdotes in my book is the original spam. The first spam in
Bill Troy:the history of the world is the MacDonald the Montgomery Ward
Bill Troy:catalog, right. In the late 1800s, people started getting
Bill Troy:catalogs in their mailbox that didn't ask for, which was
Bill Troy:marketing, in hopes that some small percentage of people would
Bill Troy:buy stuff that was the original spam unsolicited marketing
Bill Troy:messages, now we get them. So if you're going to do spam, you can
Bill Troy:do with any tool, I mean, you can do spam with telephone, you
Bill Troy:know, robo calls. So it's not the tool, it's how you use it.
Bill Troy:And it's not letting the people who sell the tool who make money
Bill Troy:from the more you use the tool, make money from you more money
Bill Troy:from you, if you use the tool more tell you how to use the
Bill Troy:tool, it's usually about using it better, not more, right.
Janice Porter:And you said something else that I absolutely
Janice Porter:love, because I teach this as well is, you know, most people
Janice Porter:look at the top of somebody's LinkedIn profile, and they never
Janice Porter:dig deeper and look. And when I teach people how to create their
Janice Porter:profile, I'm always saying add here, add there, do this, add
Janice Porter:those little things that make you human that make you unique,
Janice Porter:that show who you are, and then the people who are really paying
Janice Porter:attention will find those things. And we'll use them in
Janice Porter:conversation with you. That's when you know, they're trying to
Janice Porter:build a relationship.
Bill Troy:Yeah. And one of the things I would add to that, I
Bill Troy:always get pushback from people, well, I don't have time to
Bill Troy:scroll down. Everyone's thinking, blah, blah, blah. And
Bill Troy:you know what the answer to that is, that means you're going
Bill Troy:after people that are too small, you need to go after bigger
Bill Troy:customers. If you don't have the time to invest in a
Bill Troy:relationship, then you're trying to sell something cheap and fast
Bill Troy:and quick. And that is not a relationship. That's a
Bill Troy:transaction. Right? And most likely your best sales, your
Bill Troy:biggest sales ever were from human interaction and
Bill Troy:relationships. So go after bigger customers that you can
Bill Troy:invest the time. And every company can do that everybody
Bill Troy:starts to say, well, we don't, I don't care. If you're a hot dog
Bill Troy:vendor on the sidewalk, you can go after bigger customers get a
Bill Troy:catering gig, right? corporate events, get it sold to a
Bill Troy:corporate event and show up at a corporate party. Everybody can
Bill Troy:go after bigger customers where there's the room and their
Bill Troy:resources to invest in that relationship, and then use the
Bill Troy:tools to do that. So
Janice Porter:to me, that sounds like you have to be
Janice Porter:creative number one. And also though, you have to have the
Janice Porter:confidence to do that.
Bill Troy:Yes. I think it's not even just that it's also
Bill Troy:sticking to your values. I think there's fear. I'm afraid that if
Bill Troy:I don't hit more people today than my competitor, I'm gonna
Bill Troy:fall behind. There's a sort of fear of fear of missing out
Bill Troy:right home. And that is perpetuated by the people who
Bill Troy:sell digital marketing tools, massive marketing tools, and
Bill Troy:you've got to find out what's true inside you and go with
Bill Troy:that. And that's that's a message I share a lot with CEOs
Bill Troy:because what I find is the business owners, let's say
Bill Troy:they're a little older and grayer like I am. They're told
Bill Troy:that they're out of touch, right? Because they didn't just
Bill Troy:graduate from a marketing online marketing class at the community
Bill Troy:college last month, and so they don't know the latest and
Bill Troy:greatest digital tools. And so you're, you're, you're you don't
Bill Troy:get it step out of the way. Let me show you how it's done. It's
Bill Troy:like, No, you know, the root values of this company and what
Bill Troy:the customer needs. And don't let people push you aside, step
Bill Troy:back in and say, Look, this is what we do. This is how we treat
Bill Troy:people. And if we're going to use digital tools, it's still
Bill Troy:got fit within that we cannot sacrifice that for some, you
Bill Troy:know, Mirage, we're going to chase with some perfect keyword.
Janice Porter:Yeah, that's so true. So it's, it's also then
Janice Porter:about that famous word that I love is wisdom is about those of
Janice Porter:us with some wisdom needs to stand in our stand our ground
Janice Porter:and, and know and believe that what we're saying still holds
Janice Porter:true. And I think it does. And, and it's funny, because I was
Janice Porter:talking to a woman yesterday, about the other side of my
Janice Porter:business, the relationship marketing tool that I use that
Janice Porter:we've talked about. And she said, You know, I send cards to
Janice Porter:my grandchildren, my, like, young adult grandchildren, and
Janice Porter:my teenage grandchildren, but they never say thank you. She
Janice Porter:said, I don't think they've been taught to say thank you. And I
Janice Porter:said, first of all, they should be sending you cards and picking
Janice Porter:up the phone and talking to you. But secondly, you're probably
Janice Porter:right. I mean, in some cases, you know, that add mentality
Janice Porter:that, that, you know, we're still busy that we just have to
Janice Porter:keep moving, and we forget to teach our children some of these
Janice Porter:things today, you know, because we're trying to do so many
Janice Porter:things, and keep your head above water, generally speaking, but
Janice Porter:that just made me think that's kind of fit with what you were
Janice Porter:saying in terms of, you know, stick to your stick to your
Janice Porter:ground. And, and, and know that it really, people have to trust
Janice Porter:their gut more, I think, I don't know, I've been looking for
Janice Porter:somebody to help me with a website. And I just knew when I
Janice Porter:talked to this woman, that she was the right person for me. I
Janice Porter:didn't know it was the relationship building the
Janice Porter:feeling that I was getting, I wasn't getting snowed by I can
Janice Porter:do this, this and this, right? So I didn't. So you've worked
Janice Porter:with some big companies. In your time, you've worked with brands
Janice Porter:like Sony and Disney and Nestle. Do you have an interesting story
Janice Porter:from one of those that you can recall that that speaks to this?
Janice Porter:Because to the power of relationships and in in
Janice Porter:marketing?
Bill Troy:Well, I'll tell you, so one of the things I think
Bill Troy:it's all confusing in the world these days is what is marketing
Bill Troy:or what is sales, I think a lot of people believe marketing is
Bill Troy:sales, and the same thing. But I can tell you an interesting
Bill Troy:little sales anecdote that relates to the relationship idea
Bill Troy:about how I got to work for someone, okay, we we had a
Bill Troy:client that was I owned a market research company for about 25
Bill Troy:years. And we had done work for various clients, and a VP at one
Bill Troy:of those clients was let go was out of work. And so, you know,
Bill Troy:if you're going to work, no one wants to talk to you, because
Bill Troy:they don't want to try to pitch me for a job. But I've been out
Bill Troy:of work myself, when I was in my 20s, I worked for a company that
Bill Troy:got bought by another company, and they had their own people.
Bill Troy:So we were all getting checks and one meeting like see you're
Bill Troy:out of here. So I've been out of work before. And I'm like, so I
Bill Troy:reached out to Bruce, I'm like, Hey, what's going on, you got
Bill Troy:some free time. But if you want to connect, let's talk and just
Bill Troy:catch up, we had not had a lot of time to talk when he was a
Bill Troy:client of ours. And so we actually kind of struck up a
Bill Troy:little more of a relationship than we had before. And I I
Bill Troy:didn't just call him because he was not at work. And I'd been
Bill Troy:there myself, didn't think anything about it. And then he
Bill Troy:got a job at Sony. And he called me and said, Hey, I'm going to
Bill Troy:start at Sony next week, I want to talk to you about something,
Bill Troy:okay. And sure enough, he had an idea that he came to me and
Bill Troy:said, Can we do that that day? And I said, Yeah, we can
Bill Troy:absolutely do that it turned into the biggest client we ever
Bill Troy:had. And it was because I called an unemployed guy. So I'm sure
Bill Troy:when your marketing agency comes in, they don't say, you know,
Bill Troy:call everybody who's unemployed. But I didn't, I call them
Bill Troy:because it was a relationship. But that was the kind of thing
Bill Troy:that paid off down the road. So that was the beginning of let's
Bill Troy:see some new ways to do things. And if you really sort of look
Bill Troy:at what drives your business, what kind of relationships drive
Bill Troy:your business. And so we actually turn that just to
Bill Troy:finish that anecdote. We turned that into a process in our
Bill Troy:company, we started watching the trade press, for people that
Bill Troy:work at companies that people we knew who were out of work and we
Bill Troy:reached out to him, we built a whole package to help them when
Bill Troy:they were out of work. Make some introductions in those days.
Bill Troy:This was in the 90s, early 2000s helped them build little
Bill Troy:personal webpage like you're talking about LinkedIn, we just
Bill Troy:help them at that moment when they needed help without any
Bill Troy:expectation. We don't know if they're going to use our
Bill Troy:services later but good relationship stuff, right? So
Bill Troy:you don't know where you're going to find the right kinds of
Bill Troy:relationships to help people with but that's
Janice Porter:a great story because if you come from your
Janice Porter:heart hmm, yeah, it pays off is that law of reciprocity too,
Janice Porter:because you never know what's going to come back. It could
Janice Porter:come from some Where else right?
Bill Troy:So let me let me tell you when Bruce got the job at
Bill Troy:Sony, yeah, his phone ringing off the hook that everybody
Bill Troy:wants to call him. Right? Well, too late, right. So that's,
Bill Troy:that's, yeah, there's
Janice Porter:the moral to the story, right? Yeah, that's
Janice Porter:really good. So I had asked in the information I sent you what
Janice Porter:your favorite quote was, and you mentioned one from Steve Jobs.
Janice Porter:It's not the tools you have faith in tools are just tools,
Janice Porter:they work or they don't work. It's people you have faith in or
Janice Porter:not. And that really speaks to what we just said. And yeah, and
Janice Porter:he never struck me as a people person. Steve was who I love it
Janice Porter:then. Exactly, exactly. You knew that? Yes, of course he did. And
Janice Porter:when you Okay, so, your business now your CIVILUS consulting
Janice Porter:business when your wife run together? I know she's the boss,
Janice Porter:though. Right?
Bill Troy:She is. Yeah, I'm the idea guy. Everything.
Janice Porter:So is it now I know, it's been going for many
Janice Porter:years now? Is does business come to you? Or are you still seeking
Janice Porter:business? And if it comes to you, or when it comes to you? Do
Janice Porter:you ever have to turn people wait, because they're not
Janice Porter:thinking the way you want them? To think or?
Bill Troy:Yeah, definitely comes to us. And we definitely
Bill Troy:have to turn a lot of people away. Because we have very
Bill Troy:specific mindset. And right, we're not going to work for
Bill Troy:somebody that doesn't have that mindset. I'll give you an
Bill Troy:example. Right now, recruiting is really big. I mean, everybody
Bill Troy:needs talent. Everybody needs staff. Yeah, no one can find
Bill Troy:enough and except our clients, we help them we help them
Bill Troy:develop a relationship based recruiting strategy versus a
Bill Troy:transaction based recruiting strategy. So somebody who is
Bill Troy:spending 1000s of dollars a month on Indeed, and getting so
Bill Troy:many clicks and applications that can't keep up with all of
Bill Troy:them still aren't filling their positions. That's the kind of
Bill Troy:person we're working with. Right now. They're coming to us,
Bill Troy:because we've solved it for some other clients like, oh, call the
Bill Troy:CIVILUS. Guys, they've got a solution to get out of that debt
Bill Troy:trap. But they're some of those companies can't let go of it.
Bill Troy:You know, I can't let go of this budget I spend on Indeed,
Bill Troy:because then I won't have any clicks. Like, why do you want
Bill Troy:clicks, you want clicks, you want people working here who
Bill Troy:love working here. And that's a completely different approach
Bill Troy:completely different. And some people are afraid to let go of
Bill Troy:that the tools, the online tools are so addictive. And nobody
Bill Troy:realizes how addictive they are. But if you're involved, you're
Bill Troy:participating in almost like a casino. Dashboard, and you're
Bill Troy:seeing that? Yeah.
Janice Porter:Did they think they're getting more for their
Janice Porter:money? Yes,
Bill Troy:yeah, they've been, they forget what they're trying
Bill Troy:to actually get, which is people to work there and stay there.
Bill Troy:They think they're now trying to get clicks and views and opens
Bill Troy:and likes and all that sort of stuff. Like, wait a minute, that
Bill Troy:doesn't lead to anything, you don't want clicks. So we have
Bill Troy:some people that just can't let go of that they're too afraid to
Bill Troy:go in the direction of relationships, basically. And
Bill Troy:it's like, well, we can't work well. So people
Janice Porter:who have spent the money on something like
Janice Porter:indeed and so on to do that, and then they come to you do you
Janice Porter:take what they have and work from that and start to sift
Janice Porter:through or do you go another approach completely?
Bill Troy:We would say take the resources you're putting into it
Bill Troy:into a deed and go somewhere else but we wouldn't try to
Bill Troy:tweak their indeed campaign necessarily. No,
Janice Porter:no, no, but they've got all these people are
Janice Porter:all these. I don't even know how it works. So they get resumes.
Janice Porter:Is that how they
Bill Troy:Yeah, they get you know, they get applicants. It's
Janice Porter:yeah, it doesn't matter. Yeah. I just thought I
Janice Porter:like it's my hamster wheel. I also have resumes online that
Janice Porter:they have to sift through route
Bill Troy:don't fit anybody don't fit anything. It doesn't
Bill Troy:constantly the applicant just hits up click apply, apply,
Bill Troy:apply play can't filter anyone and then you just dealing with
Bill Troy:all these. Yeah, so we would stop and say okay, whoa, whoa,
Bill Troy:whoa, stop. Where did your best people come from? Who do you
Bill Troy:love that works here? Who do you who would you want to get and
Bill Troy:let's build a and so you end up building something that's
Bill Troy:completely different rather than some online strategy you might
Bill Troy:end up we have a moving company we work with we help them
Bill Troy:connect into the local soccer community because it turns out
Bill Troy:that soccer players are ideal. Yes, work to work in a moving
Bill Troy:company because they're you don't need big and strong
Bill Troy:stamina, right? Yes, yeah. And flexibility and because you got
Bill Troy:you know, tools to help you lift everything. And so soccer, the
Bill Troy:soccer community was the place to find people that love the job
Bill Troy:and you could feed back and it and suddenly now we're this is
Bill Troy:something more meaningful than just moving furniture, right?
Bill Troy:Yeah, that's it. hear there's people watching for a reason
Bill Troy:it's connected to what else that then things I love. And so you
Bill Troy:know, it's a longer process than what I just explained. But
Bill Troy:that's the direction you start going it is what it is if
Bill Troy:somebody starts school or the community college or what's the
Bill Troy:community, where do your people live? How do you get to know
Bill Troy:them? And suddenly, there's no ads need to be run at all,
Bill Troy:because everybody on the soccer team saying, Hey, guys, I love
Bill Troy:this job, you gotta come work here and more applicants than
Bill Troy:you can handle. So that's,
Janice Porter:that's a great example. Actually, I quite like
Janice Porter:that. That's very cool.
Bill Troy:And you never know exactly where it's going to be
Bill Troy:for each company. But for every company, you can find a way to
Bill Troy:connect into some deeper thing with people and get people to
Bill Troy:work there. Yeah,
Janice Porter:for sure, for sure. I like that you, you use
Janice Porter:the word and I'm just going back to something the volume versus
Janice Porter:intimacy. I love that because that's really what it is. It's
Janice Porter:about building that relationship. Now, I just want
Janice Porter:to take a side to tour for a second. I know we weren't going
Janice Porter:to talk about anything other than this piece. But I am a
Janice Porter:curious person, which I'm going to talk to you about in a
Janice Porter:minute. But my curiosity is about the music part of your
Janice Porter:life. Sure. Talk to me about that. Like, are you a musician,
Janice Porter:by the way?
Bill Troy:No, I'm not a musician. Okay. Okay. I'm a
Bill Troy:writer. Oh, yes. So I do songwriting. So that's a long
Bill Troy:life. That's a lifelong process. I was in the radio business for
Bill Troy:years and years ago, okay. And then as the market research
Bill Troy:company I started was focusing on entertainment media. So we
Bill Troy:worked for a lot of entertainment media clients, as
Bill Troy:well as consumer clients who grew into that, but we worked
Bill Troy:for a lot of record companies and radio stations, television
Bill Troy:stations, and so on. And so that's how I got connected into
Bill Troy:the music world. And then I, well, I have some creative bone
Bill Troy:in my body. So I just start creating stuff. So now, I'm
Bill Troy:involved in creating music and publishing some music and trying
Bill Troy:to make that annual creative outlet.
Janice Porter:And is that one genre or different genres?
Bill Troy:It's different. So quickly, the music industry
Bill Troy:story. If you're going to write music, and not be a performer,
Bill Troy:really, country's probably about the only type of music where you
Bill Troy:can do that, where you can write songs and other artists will
Bill Troy:perform most other types of music, I guess, certainly, if
Bill Troy:you're going to write plays, or something like that, or, or
Bill Troy:classical type music, other artists would perform, and you
Bill Troy:wouldn't actually be the performer. But if you're going
Bill Troy:to be a pop star, or you're going to, you know, get into the
Bill Troy:world of rap or rock, you're going to write your own
Bill Troy:material, performing raw material. But a country is a
Bill Troy:format where people artists perform other people's songs and
Bill Troy:are looking for other songs. So that's the place where you can
Bill Troy:write music, and have other people interested in performing.
Bill Troy:And
Janice Porter:those actually with that, with that genre with
Janice Porter:country music, they're storytelling all the time,
Janice Porter:right, more than any other genre. So that's kind of
Janice Porter:interesting. Okay, thank you for sharing that with me. And I
Janice Porter:said, curiosity, that's my favorite words. So I'd like to
Janice Porter:ask you my two part question, which I love to ask my, my
Janice Porter:guests. And the first part is do you think curiosity is innate?
Janice Porter:Or learned? And the second part is, what are you most curious
Janice Porter:about these days? Wow, I need
Bill Troy:I think it's both I think that
Janice Porter:you want me to read this note that you sent me
Janice Porter:and you can talk from that?
Bill Troy:I remind Sure. Yeah. I
Janice Porter:just thought you weren't? You weren't sure. Go
Janice Porter:ahead.
Bill Troy:No, I'm, I'm just thinking about them. Before we
Bill Troy:get into. I just think that is both. I think that we as a
Bill Troy:species, we come with a certain amount of curiosity, but I think
Bill Troy:we're sort of our brain is trained and formed in childhood
Bill Troy:and a young adulthood about whether curiosity is rewarded.
Bill Troy:So I think it's encouraged, you're not when you're growing
Bill Troy:up, mine was encouraged to challenge the status quo, right.
Bill Troy:So I do that as an adult. I mean, I my parents, you know,
Bill Troy:challenge authority, you go back and tell them, you know, and so
Bill Troy:that's what I do. So I think you come with a, like an ability for
Bill Troy:curiosity, but then I think it's formed in your childhood about
Bill Troy:whether you express it and go toward it.
Janice Porter:That's a good answer. I've never heard that
Janice Porter:one before. So that makes me want to ask you though, what did
Janice Porter:your parents do that, that encouraged that? Contrary, it
Janice Porter:can come prairie
Bill Troy:can train them that my parents were both
Bill Troy:contrarians, they are just and they taught me in both positive
Bill Troy:and negative reinforcement ways, right to basically challenge
Bill Troy:authority. Nobody's gonna tell you what to do. You're gonna No
Bill Troy:one's gonna do that. And they even when they told me what to
Bill Troy:do, my job is was to stand up to them say no, you're not, you
Bill Troy:know, and I think they liked that. They liked that. You know,
Bill Troy:they felt like they were making a strong man who would be able
Bill Troy:to survive in a world and no one. So that was sort of You
Bill Troy:know, our household challenged the rules. Yeah. Some of those
Bill Troy:parents know when I got in trouble at school. I got in
Bill Troy:trouble. You do the crime do the time. But I also got the wink.
Bill Troy:So that was a good one. Don't do it again. Yeah. Yeah, that was
Bill Troy:our house inside outside
Janice Porter:thing. Yes. Okay, and, and so what are you most
Janice Porter:curious about today?
Bill Troy:I'm most curious about what's in my blind spot.
Bill Troy:Right. So I don't know if you're familiar with Johari Window. And
Bill Troy:people can Google that if they want J O H, a car I window is a
Bill Troy:it's a little graphic that was designed by two guys named Joe
Bill Troy:and Harris. Very creative name. But it basically divides the
Bill Troy:world up into what you what you can see what you can't see. And
Bill Troy:then what other people can see and what other people can't see.
Bill Troy:It's a four little two by two box. Okay. But I really, as I've
Bill Troy:gotten older, come to realize how much of the world in reality
Bill Troy:is in that blind area that I can't see. Because I see what I
Bill Troy:see, I believe what I believe, you know, like rules must be
Bill Troy:challenged. Well, that's not true. It just is what I do.
Bill Troy:Right? So what if rules aren't challenged. So this idea of
Bill Troy:questioning what's really going on and looking for other
Bill Troy:possibilities is what's always fascinating to me. And I think
Bill Troy:that's where so much opportunity lies, is to go into areas. And
Bill Troy:and I mentioned this when we were emailing back and forth
Bill Troy:earlier about in the areas of adversity. So that's I mentioned
Bill Troy:the Brian kite thing where he talks about tides consultant,
Bill Troy:friend of mine who talks about how humans are not we're not
Bill Troy:capable of recognize the difference in adversity and
Bill Troy:opportunity. Frequently, what we think is one thing is the other,
Bill Troy:you know, this looks great, and then it crashes or this looks
Bill Troy:terrible, when it turns out to be great. So what he advocates
Bill Troy:is that in order to succeed, you have to go toward adversity,
Bill Troy:because you just have to believe that's opportunity, because
Bill Troy:you're bad at recognizing it. So just always go toward adversity.
Bill Troy:Love that, right? That's kind of what I'm doing is going well,
Bill Troy:okay. I don't like this. This feels weird. I need to go toward
Bill Troy:it. See what's going on there. So that's, that's what a
Bill Troy:curiosity means for me.
Janice Porter:Oh, that's really interesting. Unless I check back
Janice Porter:with you and see how that has worked out. Because that takes
Janice Porter:courage to write? Yes,
Bill Troy:really does. It takes practice and courage because the
Bill Troy:beginning it's scary, you're going toward things that are
Bill Troy:scary. And, but then it's like practicing anything else
Bill Troy:practicing juggling or practicing piano, if you do it
Bill Troy:enough, you go, Oh, I know this, I can do this one I'm good at so
Bill Troy:you get good at going toward adversity. And because you keep
Bill Troy:realizing now every time I do that, I find some interesting
Bill Troy:stuff. So it's, it's something you can practice.
Janice Porter:Yeah, that's really interesting. When I think
Janice Porter:about things I've done, though, that I've been very afraid of,
Janice Porter:like climbing to the top of a pole and you know, jumping off
Janice Porter:into oblivion. I mean, I thought the second time I got the
Janice Porter:opportunity to do it, I wouldn't be as scared. But I was. So I
Janice Porter:did it. But I was just scared and went through the same
Janice Porter:emotions I went through the first time. Like, I can't do
Janice Porter:this kind of thing. But I did it anyway, another story for
Janice Porter:another day. But, um, so lots of interesting things on the
Janice Porter:horizon for you. I know. Because you operate in many different
Janice Porter:fields, what would you say is the most important message that
Janice Porter:you might want to leave with my listeners today? Around what
Janice Porter:we've really been talking about relationships, and yeah,
Bill Troy:I would say that you've got to trust your gut,
Bill Troy:it's there for a reason.
Bill Troy:And the world right now, and not just now, but the world
Bill Troy:increasingly will continue to try to take you away from your
Bill Troy:gut. And that whether we're talking about cliques and
Bill Troy:technology tools that are trying to convince you to, you know,
Bill Troy:manipulate people in line or whatever, or whether it's, you
Bill Troy:know, who knows what it is? And I think that, you've got to go
Bill Troy:back to that really know what that is it for example,
Bill Troy:relationships, do you have a good clear definition of what a
Bill Troy:relationship is? I think a lot of people use the word but they
Bill Troy:don't really well. I don't know, what is, Do I have a clear? Do I
Bill Troy:know if I have one with someone? Right? And we do in CIVILUS, we
Bill Troy:actually do that with people. I mean, when for example, you can
Bill Troy:measure the relationship with someone, when you send them a
Bill Troy:note of any type, any kind of email, telephone message,
Bill Troy:whatever, a few get one back. That's the first indication you
Bill Troy:have relationship. And B, if you have a really good relationship,
Bill Troy:they put as much or more energy into their response than you
Bill Troy:did. Right. My best friend when I send him a note, I get a
Bill Troy:paragraph back, you get what? I get a paragraph backwards and in
Bill Troy:one sentence, right? And so you can say, Oh, I have a
Bill Troy:relationship with him where he feels good about spending time
Bill Troy:with me. and investing in me, it's not I'm trying. So you can
Bill Troy:actually start to realize and measure whether you have
Bill Troy:relationships, you can define it. And then you're gonna find
Bill Troy:that that is something that comes from your heart from your
Bill Troy:gut. And you know if it's right or not, and you got to stick to
Bill Troy:it, there's no reason and this is a lot of what we spend time
Bill Troy:with on CIVILUS. with clients, there's no reason you have to
Bill Troy:sacrifice your values to succeed. And in fact, our theory
Bill Troy:is that if you go toward your values, and go toward that, what
Bill Troy:feels like adversity scary, going toward my own values feels
Bill Troy:scary. But that's the case for a lot of people I'm going to lose
Bill Troy:my business from and you'll find you can be more successful,
Bill Troy:you're gonna be more authentic, you're going to come up with new
Bill Troy:solutions. And that's what you need to do is go toward your gut
Bill Troy:and not listen to other people.
Janice Porter:Amen. I mean, that's right. That's so true.
Janice Porter:And I think that's a great place to stop because I could go here,
Janice Porter:there and everywhere with you. I love that though. You know that
Janice Porter:it feels scary. But you have to stick to your guns, because in
Janice Porter:the end, you won't love yourself at all. If you don't, if you
Janice Porter:don't, right, it just wouldn't feel right. Well,
Bill Troy:and, you know, I'll tell you, anecdotally, from we
Bill Troy:talked about the music industry a little bit ago. When you begin
Bill Troy:in something like music industry, or whatever business
Bill Troy:you're in, you think you're there to satisfy other people,
Bill Troy:and the more other people love you and more applause and sales
Bill Troy:you get that's love. And what you'll find in the long run is
Bill Troy:that it's not right. You know, the most successful music, music
Bill Troy:art in the world, artists in the world end up sort of crashing
Bill Troy:out going well, that's just plastic and fake. And I want to
Bill Troy:get back to truth and react and real. And so it can be the same
Bill Troy:as as a business owner, you start off well, this is where we
Bill Troy:need to go as we need to grow and you get revenue bla bla bla
Bill Troy:bla, and you can get you can take yourself away from what you
Bill Troy:are all about. And then you're just you build something that
Bill Troy:isn't you you hate, I don't want you to can't. So you've got to
Bill Troy:stick to your gut, you've got to stick to what's what your true
Bill Troy:values are, and, and then insert that into your company, and
Bill Troy:it'll work. That's
Janice Porter:awesome. Thank you for all that great advice.
Janice Porter:Yes. And I'm sure that the people that listen to my show
Janice Porter:will appreciate hearing some of those things and it's a lot of
Janice Porter:food for thought for some people. So you know, very well
Janice Porter:taken and Bill. I will put in the show notes, but where can
Janice Porter:people find your book or find you if they are? Right
Bill Troy:so the company is Seville this consultancy IDI LIS
Bill Troy:consulting.com, and I'm billing sales consulting, and the book
Bill Troy:is quicksand CLI CK sa nd and that's available on Amazon if
Bill Troy:they want to read it. It's interesting historical reading.
Bill Troy:And one of the things I do in the book is talk about how this
Bill Troy:quicksand in we're in now is not new. I talked about that Mark
Bill Troy:Montgomery Ward catalog it's 100 year process that we're involved
Bill Troy:with. So it's not something new. You're not out of touch every
Bill Troy:century.
Janice Porter:Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for your
Janice Porter:time. Thank you for your your wisdom and thank you to my
Janice Porter:audience for listening again and appreciate you if you like what
Janice Porter:you heard, please leave a review and remember to stay connected
Janice Porter:and be remembered
