Why Intentional Visibility is Key to Business Growth with Donna Cravotta | RR285

Janice Porter: 00:00:02

Donna, Hello everyone, and welcome to the

Janice Porter: 00:00:05

episode this week of relationships rule. Almost

Janice Porter: 00:00:09

forgot what it was anyway. Nice to be here and nice to have

Janice Porter: 00:00:12

another special guest with me. Donna. Cravada is my guest

Janice Porter: 00:00:16

today, and Donna is all about visibility, strategy and

Janice Porter: 00:00:22

storytelling, those are her special words. And she's been a

Janice Porter: 00:00:26

marketer, I think I would say, for many years, and I was in a

Janice Porter: 00:00:33

group, or what was it, a summit of some sort, that we did

Janice Porter: 00:00:37

together, and that's how we met. And I was fascinated by what I

Janice Porter: 00:00:41

saw, and wanted to talk more with Donna, and think that she

Janice Porter: 00:00:44

has lots of value to bring to the audience. So welcome to the

Janice Porter: 00:00:48

show, Donna.

Donna Cravotta: 00:00:49

Thank you. It's good to be here.

Janice Porter: 00:00:51

You're very welcome. So I'm going to dig in

Janice Porter: 00:00:55

a little bit with your be visible Club, which is a

Janice Porter: 00:00:59

mastermind community, the real 50 over 50, the wisdom

Janice Porter: 00:01:03

revolution that inspired me, and I love to hear about more about

Janice Porter: 00:01:06

that so but first I want to ask you, I know that you did a

Janice Porter: 00:01:11

revamp, like you took some time off from your busy marketing

Janice Porter: 00:01:15

career and step back to see where you needed to be. And I

Janice Porter: 00:01:21

think it was about two years correct that, yeah, yeah. So can

Janice Porter: 00:01:26

you share a little bit about, you know, the process, or the

Janice Porter: 00:01:30

aha moments that came to you about that

Donna Cravotta: 00:01:34

I had reached a point where I had been working

Donna Cravotta: 00:01:37

with some clients that were very demanding, and it all kind of

Donna Cravotta: 00:01:43

collided with COVID, and my son graduating during COVID and

Donna Cravotta: 00:01:49

going to college during COVID and dealing with some health

Donna Cravotta: 00:01:53

issues. And it was just like there was this life work instead

Donna Cravotta: 00:01:57

of balance. It was a bit of a collision. And I was a lot of

Donna Cravotta: 00:02:02

stuff. That's a lot of stuff, and, and there was a point where

Donna Cravotta: 00:02:07

I was kind of off boarding these two clients, and three were

Donna Cravotta: 00:02:10

getting ready to come back on board. And I was just having

Donna Cravotta: 00:02:15

this day where, like, I just didn't want to do anything. And

Donna Cravotta: 00:02:17

I, you know, it wasn't. Everything was working. The

Donna Cravotta: 00:02:20

technical gods were all pleased and be so it was me. It wasn't

Donna Cravotta: 00:02:25

anything but me. That was just like, I don't want to do this,

Donna Cravotta: 00:02:28

and I don't want to do this, and I don't want to do this, and I

Donna Cravotta: 00:02:31

don't want to do this. And I said, Okay, time to step away

Donna Cravotta: 00:02:33

and, like, figure out what's going on here. And I realized

Donna Cravotta: 00:02:37

that I had built myself into an agency I didn't want and I

Donna Cravotta: 00:02:41

didn't want to be responsible. For all of those people. I'm a

Donna Cravotta: 00:02:44

single parent. My son was just like, settled after, you know, a

Donna Cravotta: 00:02:49

pretty rough transition of graduation and,

Janice Porter: 00:02:55

well, COVID didn't help any of us. No. I

Donna Cravotta: 00:02:57

mean, that's why it was rough, yeah, yeah. You

Donna Cravotta: 00:02:59

know, it's like, we'd worked all these years to kind of like, get

Donna Cravotta: 00:03:02

him to this point, and it's like, let's throw a monkey

Donna Cravotta: 00:03:05

wrench in this whole thing. And, you know, I just I, I was just

Donna Cravotta: 00:03:09

on autopilot, and I didn't realize what I was doing was not

Donna Cravotta: 00:03:14

what I wanted. And when I really thought about it, it was like,

Donna Cravotta: 00:03:18

oh, yeah, you don't want any of this. You don't want to be

Donna Cravotta: 00:03:20

responsible for all these people on a team, and right for clients

Donna Cravotta: 00:03:24

that are going to need 12 different things that you don't

Donna Cravotta: 00:03:27

like doing and and even if you try to outsource that, you know,

Donna Cravotta: 00:03:32

there's still the responsibility of managing that. And, you know,

Donna Cravotta: 00:03:36

it just didn't feel like it fit anymore. It felt like I was

Donna Cravotta: 00:03:39

putting somebody else's clothes on. And I said, Okay, well, you

Donna Cravotta: 00:03:43

just need to stop, because if you rush into something else,

Donna Cravotta: 00:03:46

it's not going to be the right thing. You need to just take a

Donna Cravotta: 00:03:49

little break, a break and a breather and pause and figure

Donna Cravotta: 00:03:54

out what do you want before you start building something

Donna Cravotta: 00:03:57

because, you know, I my, natural nature is to just start

Donna Cravotta: 00:04:03

building. Yes, I needed to kind of stop and have a plan first.

Donna Cravotta: 00:04:07

And I did, and I slowly worked my way back into what I wanted.

Donna Cravotta: 00:04:12

And I took myself through a process that I bring clients

Donna Cravotta: 00:04:16

through, that I used to call a content audit, but it's really

Donna Cravotta: 00:04:20

so much more than that, because I started to look at everything

Donna Cravotta: 00:04:23

that I've accomplished over 40 years of working. Mm hmm. And

Donna Cravotta: 00:04:26

you know, when I had, I worked in law firms for 25 years before

Donna Cravotta: 00:04:30

I started my own business in 2006 so there's, there's a lot

Donna Cravotta: 00:04:35

in all of this. Of course, I started to kind of go through it

Donna Cravotta: 00:04:39

and figure out, like, what do I want to do? What do I not want

Donna Cravotta: 00:04:42

to do? What is needed, what's relevant, what really helps

Donna Cravotta: 00:04:45

people. Because I don't want to just offer services that only

Donna Cravotta: 00:04:49

please me. They have to be needed and useful and wanted.

Donna Cravotta: 00:04:53

And I just went through this whole process over several

Donna Cravotta: 00:04:56

months, and I started eliminating things, and I

Donna Cravotta: 00:04:59

started to feel. Figure out what, you know what, what's

Donna Cravotta: 00:05:01

going to come with me, and you know what are, what, what else

Donna Cravotta: 00:05:05

happens? Like, what could be recycled, what could be

Donna Cravotta: 00:05:07

upcycled, what could be sold, what could be given away. And I

Donna Cravotta: 00:05:10

started creating these buckets, and I was like, Oh, this isn't a

Donna Cravotta: 00:05:13

content audit. I'm like, Marie Kondo ing, my business, yes. And

Donna Cravotta: 00:05:20

I actually watched a show called The the fine I think it's the

Donna Cravotta: 00:05:24

fine art of the Swedish death cleanse. And that's what they

Donna Cravotta: 00:05:28

do, is they go into people's homes while they're still alive,

Janice Porter: 00:05:32

their stuff. Oh, what a horrible name, though,

Donna Cravotta: 00:05:36

but it's, it's something that they do in

Donna Cravotta: 00:05:37

Sweden. It's like a ritual that they do. Yes, okay, there's a

Donna Cravotta: 00:05:41

book with the same thing, and they did a TV show, and there

Donna Cravotta: 00:05:45

was one episode that really stuck with me and the woman that

Donna Cravotta: 00:05:50

they went into her home, she was a retired Las Vegas showgirl,

Donna Cravotta: 00:05:54

and she had like a borderline hoarded home with, yes, all

Donna Cravotta: 00:05:58

kinds of freaky things in it. But they found these blankets

Donna Cravotta: 00:06:03

that her grandmother had crocheted for her when she was a

Donna Cravotta: 00:06:05

little girl, and they were tattered and stained and torn

Donna Cravotta: 00:06:09

and total disarray. And had she passed away, or somebody was

Donna Cravotta: 00:06:14

helping her, like just empty out this house, they would have been

Donna Cravotta: 00:06:17

in the dumpster. Right? They did was what they did was they took

Donna Cravotta: 00:06:21

these blankets and they restored them, and they mended them and

Donna Cravotta: 00:06:24

they fixed them. Oh, wow. They packaged them beautifully and

Donna Cravotta: 00:06:27

wrote these notes and they gave them to her granddaughters, who

Donna Cravotta: 00:06:31

she was estranged from. And this was like, the reconnection to

Donna Cravotta: 00:06:35

this relationship with her granddaughters. And I was like,

Donna Cravotta: 00:06:38

and this is what I do. Yes, your stories connect to their

Donna Cravotta: 00:06:42

stories, the things that they accomplished, the things that

Donna Cravotta: 00:06:45

were meaningful. And the irony of that is, like a visual that I

Donna Cravotta: 00:06:51

had for my work for so many years was like those little

Donna Cravotta: 00:06:54

squares that you crochet and then you make a granny squares.

Donna Cravotta: 00:06:58

Yeah. Granny Squares, yeah. And, like, I always viewed my work

Donna Cravotta: 00:07:02

as, like, the different elements of it as these little granny

Donna Cravotta: 00:07:05

squares. And individually, they don't really mean that much, but

Donna Cravotta: 00:07:08

when you put them together, it creates something of substance.

Donna Cravotta: 00:07:11

And, you know, just tying all of that together made me realize,

Donna Cravotta: 00:07:17

like, what I'm doing is so much more. And then, you know, I have

Donna Cravotta: 00:07:22

this whole real 50 over 50 community that was kind of

Donna Cravotta: 00:07:24

growing at the same time. And I realized that I'm helping women

Donna Cravotta: 00:07:30

that are of a certain age, realizing that what got them to

Donna Cravotta: 00:07:35

where they are is important and relevant. Because as we start to

Donna Cravotta: 00:07:39

reinvent in the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s. You know, start to think,

Donna Cravotta: 00:07:44

like, you know, our confidence takes a hit and yeah. Like, who

Donna Cravotta: 00:07:48

did everything I do before this point matter? Like, did I just

Donna Cravotta: 00:07:51

waste my time?

Janice Porter: 00:07:52

Especially because things have changed so

Janice Porter: 00:07:55

quickly, so much we feel we do get Yeah, it's, oh, my god,

Janice Porter: 00:08:01

doesn't that even count? Yes, I know Yes. I've experienced

Donna Cravotta: 00:08:04

that for sure. You really Yeah, you get the

Donna Cravotta: 00:08:06

whole, you know, the whole assortment of an imposter

Donna Cravotta: 00:08:09

syndrome. Yes, again,

Janice Porter: 00:08:11

yes. So, okay, so let's just break these two apart

Janice Porter: 00:08:16

for a second. And first of all, I want you to tell me, and you

Janice Porter: 00:08:19

started to tell me, in a way, about your concept of being

Janice Porter: 00:08:23

intentionally visible and why it's important for business

Janice Porter: 00:08:26

owners to embrace this mindset. Can you elaborate on that? I

Janice Porter: 00:08:30

wonder. You know, what is that that? Does it start with you?

Janice Porter: 00:08:34

Because I know. Okay, I'm just going to preface by saying that

Janice Porter: 00:08:37

I know that when I work with somebody for the first time to

Janice Porter: 00:08:42

help them with LinkedIn and to build their their profile. It's

Janice Porter: 00:08:46

just one little piece right of what you do, but I like to get

Janice Porter: 00:08:50

into their head first and find out more about them that I can

Janice Porter: 00:08:54

bring something out that means something to them. And I'm, I'm

Janice Porter: 00:08:57

hoping and thinking that that's what you're talking about, which

Janice Porter: 00:09:00

helps them. Okay, yeah, so please elaborate with

Donna Cravotta: 00:09:05

marketing. Most people really don't understand

Donna Cravotta: 00:09:08

the way it works. They listen to the loudest person, and that's

Donna Cravotta: 00:09:12

where they that's where they get guidance from, that's where they

Donna Cravotta: 00:09:15

buy services from. But it's not always the best way to go. Okay?

Donna Cravotta: 00:09:20

Usually one business model. All businesses are different, right?

Donna Cravotta: 00:09:26

So when you listen first, listen to yourself, listen to your

Donna Cravotta: 00:09:30

content, listen to those around you, listen to the people you

Donna Cravotta: 00:09:33

admire, listen to the people that you want to connect with,

Donna Cravotta: 00:09:36

that you want to help, that you want to work with. Everything

Donna Cravotta: 00:09:39

starts to become more intentional, and you're not just

Donna Cravotta: 00:09:42

randomly following the loudest voice, okay, randomly follow

Donna Cravotta: 00:09:47

that loudest voice. There's a lot of noise all around it, so

Donna Cravotta: 00:09:51

you're getting lost in all of that noise. But when you start

Donna Cravotta: 00:09:55

to become more intentional about how you want to show up, who you

Donna Cravotta: 00:09:59

want to be there. For the words you choose to use, the business

Donna Cravotta: 00:10:04

that you want to build. It changes everything, because

Donna Cravotta: 00:10:09

you're actually deciding where you want to be. You're not just

Donna Cravotta: 00:10:12

blindly following something. And the way that I feel the online

Donna Cravotta: 00:10:17

world works is is there's an undercurrent. And when you can

Donna Cravotta: 00:10:23

glide into that undercurrent, instead of chasing that noise,

Donna Cravotta: 00:10:27

you actually do connect with the people you want to connect with.

Donna Cravotta: 00:10:30

Okay, can

Janice Porter: 00:10:31

you elaborate on that a

Donna Cravotta: 00:10:32

little bit? Because the undercurrent is it's

Donna Cravotta: 00:10:34

quiet, and there's it's peaceful, and it's not frenetic,

Donna Cravotta: 00:10:39

and it's much smaller, it feels right, then it feels right, it's

Donna Cravotta: 00:10:44

aligned, it's connection, and you just kind of naturally go.

Donna Cravotta: 00:10:49

But people fight that, and they're going for the noise,

Donna Cravotta: 00:10:52

they're going for the shiny thing. I need to do what's next?

Donna Cravotta: 00:10:55

I need to build something. I need to going, I can't stop.

Janice Porter: 00:10:58

So do you think, though, some of that comes from

Janice Porter: 00:11:01

the fact that they haven't and because they're confused and

Janice Porter: 00:11:06

playing the squirrel game that they don't sit down to to really

Janice Porter: 00:11:13

think about who they want to work with, who their target

Janice Porter: 00:11:16

audiences are, that aligns with their thinking, with the work

Janice Porter: 00:11:19

that they want to do, because that maybe clouds everything

Janice Porter: 00:11:24

from the very beginning. Yeah,

Donna Cravotta: 00:11:26

that's part of it. And another piece of it is

Donna Cravotta: 00:11:29

that they're looking at demographics. They're just

Donna Cravotta: 00:11:34

looking at age, gender, location, race, you know, family

Donna Cravotta: 00:11:41

structure, they're not looking at what people care about.

Donna Cravotta: 00:11:44

They're not looking at values. And that's the thing that goes

Donna Cravotta: 00:11:48

into the undercurrent. When you care about the same things, you

Donna Cravotta: 00:11:53

connect.

Janice Porter: 00:11:54

Well, I'm thinking that they're just

Janice Porter: 00:11:57

thinking about money,

Donna Cravotta: 00:11:59

yeah, and and that's just it. Because if you

Donna Cravotta: 00:12:01

think about, like, you go into Facebook ads, if you look at the

Donna Cravotta: 00:12:05

back, you know, the back end of Facebook ads, what's it doing?

Donna Cravotta: 00:12:09

Demographics, it's all connected to money, then that, but, but

Donna Cravotta: 00:12:12

it's not looking at what people care about. It's not looking

Donna Cravotta: 00:12:15

about what, what they feel. It's not looking, you know, it's not

Donna Cravotta: 00:12:20

looking at their why? Like, why am I doing this? That you do

Donna Cravotta: 00:12:23

this? Something is driving you to do this. I mean, we quit our

Donna Cravotta: 00:12:26

jobs, right?

Janice Porter: 00:12:27

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So in your be visible

Janice Porter: 00:12:31

club, you work with the people that, and they're, are they all

Janice Porter: 00:12:34

women? Yeah,

Donna Cravotta: 00:12:36

I had, I had one man in there last year, and he

Donna Cravotta: 00:12:39

didn't come back.

Janice Porter: 00:12:41

It was too feminine energy there for him.

Janice Porter: 00:12:44

No,

Donna Cravotta: 00:12:44

he was actually good with that. You know what he

Donna Cravotta: 00:12:46

said? He said that his business grew so much they didn't have

Donna Cravotta: 00:12:49

time to be there anymore. And I was, like,

Janice Porter: 00:12:52

interesting, okay, so, but that's your

Janice Porter: 00:12:55

general that's who you Yeah.

Donna Cravotta: 00:12:58

And it just kind of, it just kind of all happened

Donna Cravotta: 00:13:01

that way. And you know when I you know when I do work with

Donna Cravotta: 00:13:05

clients, we start with a detailed questionnaire, and a

Donna Cravotta: 00:13:08

big part of that is having them think through all of those

Donna Cravotta: 00:13:14

things, because until you do that, you're never going to

Donna Cravotta: 00:13:17

really connect with the right people, because you have to kind

Donna Cravotta: 00:13:21

of understand them.

Janice Porter: 00:13:23

Well, it's funny, because I resist doing those

Janice Porter: 00:13:26

kinds of things too, like really sitting down and getting to the

Janice Porter: 00:13:30

heart of you know, who is my target audience, and so on and

Janice Porter: 00:13:33

so forth. I hate doing that stuff. I don't know why. I think

Janice Porter: 00:13:38

partly I go by my gut, and I'm pretty intuitive when it comes

Janice Porter: 00:13:44

to who I resonate with or who resonates with me and and

Janice Porter: 00:13:50

whether, because I'm a relationship person, that's what

Janice Porter: 00:13:52

I do. And I I find it pretty easy to if I can't draw them out

Janice Porter: 00:13:57

then, then they're not my person, because they're, you

Janice Porter: 00:14:02

know, like it's usually, I make people feel more comfortable

Janice Porter: 00:14:05

about and able to talk quickly to me, you know, talking to open

Janice Porter: 00:14:11

up quickly to me. And I always tell this, this story about my

Janice Porter: 00:14:16

husband going golfing with, yes, he does, and went with his

Janice Porter: 00:14:21

friend, and they hooked up with this couple from Australia. And

Janice Porter: 00:14:24

he said they were the nicest couple. He said, We, you know,

Janice Porter: 00:14:26

we found they live in such and such a place, and we had a great

Janice Porter: 00:14:30

golf match. And I said, Oh, where in Australia do they live?

Janice Porter: 00:14:32

How many kids do they have? What do they why were they over here?

Janice Porter: 00:14:35

He says, Janice, we were just playing golf. I have no idea.

Janice Porter: 00:14:38

I'm like, I could have had all that out of them in five

Janice Porter: 00:14:40

minutes, right? Superficial, that answer that he gave me, but

Donna Cravotta: 00:14:46

most people don't think that way. I know

Donna Cravotta: 00:14:49

it's crazy. They don't, and they have to be led to think that

Donna Cravotta: 00:14:52

way. And they don't want to do these forms, and when they do,

Donna Cravotta: 00:14:58

they realize. Uh, like they, it's ones on them. Like, ah,

Donna Cravotta: 00:15:02

that's why this didn't work, and that's why that work. And no

Donna Cravotta: 00:15:06

wonder,

Janice Porter: 00:15:07

yeah, for sure. Yeah, totally. Um, so you, how

Janice Porter: 00:15:12

many people do you have in your mastermind, your your

Janice Porter: 00:15:15

intentionally visible, be visible, community attitude?

Donna Cravotta: 00:15:19

It's, small right now, because it's, it's

Donna Cravotta: 00:15:21

relatively new, and I've kind of been, it's been a work in

Donna Cravotta: 00:15:24

progress. So there's only about 20 people in there.

Janice Porter: 00:15:27

That's good. That's manageable, yeah, but I

Janice Porter: 00:15:29

don't, you know. I

Donna Cravotta: 00:15:30

don't want to grow it very big, right? I want

Donna Cravotta: 00:15:33

to keep it small, and I want people to be in there that never

Donna Cravotta: 00:15:36

want to leave. Well, and do they work their friends Well,

Janice Porter: 00:15:39

that's right, do they bring their questions for

Janice Porter: 00:15:42

masterminding each week or each month or how often? Do you mean?

Janice Porter: 00:15:45

We

Donna Cravotta: 00:15:45

have, we have two calls a week a month, and we

Donna Cravotta: 00:15:48

have, it's all built into a membership site, so there's lots

Donna Cravotta: 00:15:52

of opportunity and places to ask questions and and learn more.

Donna Cravotta: 00:15:58

That's great. And there's lots of, you know, there's a whole

Donna Cravotta: 00:16:00

course in there, and there's resources and tools, and we'll

Donna Cravotta: 00:16:03

be bringing in guest experts at some point. But there's just so

Donna Cravotta: 00:16:06

much to go through right now that I don't want to, I don't

Donna Cravotta: 00:16:09

want to complicate it more. But, you know, it's, it's, it's a

Donna Cravotta: 00:16:13

full library of, you know, years and years and years of my work.

Donna Cravotta: 00:16:18

That's

Janice Porter: 00:16:18

great. And then you you have this new, this

Janice Porter: 00:16:24

other thing, the real 50 over 50, the wisdom revolution. And

Janice Porter: 00:16:27

that, of course, appealed to me because I think I love the name

Janice Porter: 00:16:31

the wisdom revolution, because that's, that's what it is we, we

Janice Porter: 00:16:36

don't want to be shoved under the rug. We have a lot of wisdom

Janice Porter: 00:16:40

to impart, and women over 50, and I think that's wonderful.

Janice Porter: 00:16:44

Tell me a little bit more about that, because I just hooked up

Janice Porter: 00:16:47

with you on that, and I'm excited about it.

Donna Cravotta: 00:16:49

Yeah, you're on the web page. And I was not

Donna Cravotta: 00:16:53

planning this. I was in the middle of rebuilding a business,

Donna Cravotta: 00:16:58

and that, you know, takes its own level of work. And, you

Donna Cravotta: 00:17:02

know, I was figuring out any odd. And I was, you know, still

Donna Cravotta: 00:17:05

figuring out my son in college, and, yeah, all of these things

Donna Cravotta: 00:17:08

going on at the same time. And I was listening to Mika Brzezinski

Donna Cravotta: 00:17:15

from MSNBC talk about the Forbes 30 over 50 Conference, which

Donna Cravotta: 00:17:19

she's involved in, and they were all big names, people that don't

Donna Cravotta: 00:17:24

really need more visibility, right, right? I'm laying in bed

Donna Cravotta: 00:17:28

listening to this, and I'm thinking, start to think about

Donna Cravotta: 00:17:30

all the women that I know over 50 that could really use more

Donna Cravotta: 00:17:33

visibility. And I'm like, why is orbs featuring any of these

Donna Cravotta: 00:17:37

women? Even in like the 50 over 50, there's like three or four

Donna Cravotta: 00:17:40

different franchises associated. And, you know, to go attend one

Donna Cravotta: 00:17:46

of these events, it's a $10,000 ticket, yeah. And if you want

Donna Cravotta: 00:17:50

to, you know, apply to be part of the Forbes 50 over 50, and

Donna Cravotta: 00:17:55

you're a small business owner or a founder, you need to have 10

Donna Cravotta: 00:17:59

million in revenue as a minimum. So I'm just laying there, and

Donna Cravotta: 00:18:02

the whole thing is just rubbing me the wrong way. And I start to

Donna Cravotta: 00:18:06

make a list in my head of all the women that I know over the

Donna Cravotta: 00:18:10

age of 50 that are doing good work. So I grabbed a pen and

Donna Cravotta: 00:18:13

paper because I'm starting to fall out, and it took me 15

Donna Cravotta: 00:18:17

minutes to make a list, yeah, and I started to do keyword

Donna Cravotta: 00:18:20

research, and everything was about hair and makeup and your

Donna Cravotta: 00:18:22

body's falling apart and life's going to be awful, and might as

Donna Cravotta: 00:18:25

well give up now. And then, I bought the domain, the real 50

Donna Cravotta: 00:18:29

over 50 for $1 I realized that I should have had to pay more

Donna Cravotta: 00:18:34

money or negotiate for that, yeah. And then it was like, it

Donna Cravotta: 00:18:39

was all kind of coming layer by layer. And I was like, Okay, so

Donna Cravotta: 00:18:43

like the people that make decisions about our laws, about

Donna Cravotta: 00:18:47

finances, about insurance, about health care, about retirement,

Donna Cravotta: 00:18:53

they're all using the same tools I'm using, and this is what

Donna Cravotta: 00:18:56

they're getting, hair and makeup. Yeah, and I'm thinking

Donna Cravotta: 00:19:02

about all these women that I know, and we were going to sit

Donna Cravotta: 00:19:05

down and have a conversation, like, hair and makeup might come

Donna Cravotta: 00:19:08

up, but it's not going to be the first thing, right? Yeah. And I

Donna Cravotta: 00:19:13

just started to reach out to my friends, and I was like, because

Donna Cravotta: 00:19:16

everyone was a friend, a colleague, a client, and I was

Donna Cravotta: 00:19:19

like, Well, if I just started interviewing you. Would you want

Donna Cravotta: 00:19:21

to be interviewed? And within two weeks, I had 40 interviews

Donna Cravotta: 00:19:25

booked, wow. And tomorrow is going to be our it's either the

Donna Cravotta: 00:19:29

88th or the 90th interview. And this month will be our 12th

Donna Cravotta: 00:19:34

panel, and we've got interviews booked all the way. I think the

Donna Cravotta: 00:19:38

next one is may 2025,

Janice Porter: 00:19:39

I know. I think I'm in April, yeah, so that's,

Janice Porter: 00:19:44

that's awesome. It's

Donna Cravotta: 00:19:45

been a thing, and it's very, it's very casual

Donna Cravotta: 00:19:47

and very loose, but the connections that are happening

Donna Cravotta: 00:19:52

are incredible.

Janice Porter: 00:19:53

Yeah, that's very cool. And I have to block off

Janice Porter: 00:19:56

some time to make those Connect. Make some time for that, because

Janice Porter: 00:19:58

that's what you have to do, right? Right? But you, you feel

Janice Porter: 00:20:01

like, when you're part of something, even though it's

Janice Porter: 00:20:04

like, I'm brand new to it, that it's going to be a warm

Janice Porter: 00:20:07

conversation, because you're connected through you. And so

Janice Porter: 00:20:10

that's really special. And

Donna Cravotta: 00:20:12

everybody, everybody is either somebody I

Donna Cravotta: 00:20:14

personally know or somebody they introduced me to, yeah,

Janice Porter: 00:20:18

that's really cool. So I'm going to switch

Janice Porter: 00:20:23

topics for a second, because this one interests me a lot, and

Janice Porter: 00:20:25

I know that you've been studying AI and chat GPT and all of that,

Janice Porter: 00:20:30

and how do you integrate that into your strategies for

Janice Porter: 00:20:35

visibility and storytelling? How do you make that work in

Janice Porter: 00:20:39

practice?

Donna Cravotta: 00:20:41

So many ways. Oh, really.

Janice Porter: 00:20:43

Okay, yeah, so

Donna Cravotta: 00:20:44

many ways. And again, the word intentional is

Donna Cravotta: 00:20:46

going to come up, because I don't look for like most people

Donna Cravotta: 00:20:51

view AI tools as being a productivity tool, and you'll

Donna Cravotta: 00:20:54

save time. Okay? I view them, I mean, you're going to save time.

Donna Cravotta: 00:20:58

It's Oh for sure, you know. But that's not my that's not my

Donna Cravotta: 00:21:01

reason for using them. My reason for using them is you now have

Donna Cravotta: 00:21:05

access to a level of information you literally cannot hold in

Donna Cravotta: 00:21:09

your brain, for sure. So how can you partner with this

Donna Cravotta: 00:21:14

information? So now you can take up level everything that you do

Donna Cravotta: 00:21:18

and make it better while you're saving time and yes, being wiser

Donna Cravotta: 00:21:23

with the way that you work, I get a visual of like being able

Donna Cravotta: 00:21:28

to take the New York City Public Library on Fifth Avenue and 42nd

Donna Cravotta: 00:21:32

street and put it on like a backpack, and I have this with

Donna Cravotta: 00:21:36

me at all times I can go find out all of this information and

Donna Cravotta: 00:21:40

what I Do a big part of what we do in the be visible community

Donna Cravotta: 00:21:44

that I'm in is we learn how to ask these tools the right

Janice Porter: 00:21:49

questions, right that's what I'm learning right

Janice Porter: 00:21:51

now too. It's fascinating. It's fascinating.

Donna Cravotta: 00:21:54

And sometimes the questions could be super

Donna Cravotta: 00:21:56

simple, it could be a paragraph a sentence, and sometimes

Donna Cravotta: 00:21:59

they're complex and they're layered and and you have to ask

Donna Cravotta: 00:22:02

in stages. But what I find is one of the true gifts of working

Donna Cravotta: 00:22:07

with these tools is it makes you stop and think about what you

Donna Cravotta: 00:22:11

really want before you ask anything, because now you have

Donna Cravotta: 00:22:15

to ask for it.

Janice Porter: 00:22:18

Do you use chat, GBT, or do you have another

Janice Porter: 00:22:22

favorite? Um,

Donna Cravotta: 00:22:23

it changes because the tools change so

Donna Cravotta: 00:22:26

frequently. Uh, huh. My most recent favorite tool is

Donna Cravotta: 00:22:29

perplexity.

Janice Porter: 00:22:31

Oh, that just got mentioned to me the other day.

Janice Porter: 00:22:33

Yeah,

Donna Cravotta: 00:22:34

that's somebody favorite tool. Um,

Janice Porter: 00:22:37

and how is it different? It's

Donna Cravotta: 00:22:39

really good for research, and it gives you the,

Donna Cravotta: 00:22:43

it gives you the resources of where it pulls everything from,

Donna Cravotta: 00:22:46

and then bottom of every chat, it gives you a list of related

Donna Cravotta: 00:22:50

questions. So it makes you think a little more. You know, I like

Donna Cravotta: 00:22:55

go back and forth with them. Yes, I always, I always ask,

Donna Cravotta: 00:22:59

like, what else do you need? Am I missing anything? What can I

Donna Cravotta: 00:23:03

provide to you to make you know, to make you make this task

Donna Cravotta: 00:23:06

easier for you? So

Janice Porter: 00:23:08

I was learnt talking and just testing.

Janice Porter: 00:23:12

Somebody showed me how to set up a 90 day content calendar

Janice Porter: 00:23:17

through chat, GPT, and what to ask it, and so on and so forth.

Janice Porter: 00:23:20

And then somebody else in this group that I was online with

Janice Porter: 00:23:23

said, Now, once you've got the topics, it was for twice a week

Janice Porter: 00:23:28

for 90 days, because you can pre program or you can schedule

Janice Porter: 00:23:31

LinkedIn now to with your posts for up to that time. And then

Janice Porter: 00:23:35

this person said, then go to perplexity. And for each of the

Janice Porter: 00:23:40

topics. Ask it for three versions of a post and and I

Janice Porter: 00:23:45

said, Why would I need to go there? Can't I use it chat GPT?

Janice Porter: 00:23:49

He just said that it was more detailed. Yeah,

Donna Cravotta: 00:23:52

they work differently. Yeah, okay. I'll

Donna Cravotta: 00:23:54

have to test it out. And Claude is another one. Claude is really

Donna Cravotta: 00:23:57

good for writing. I've heard that

Janice Porter: 00:23:58

one too, but I haven't, I

Donna Cravotta: 00:24:00

don't, I don't use chat. GPT much anymore.

Donna Cravotta: 00:24:03

Well, I like

Janice Porter: 00:24:04

because I can, I've learned how to use it. And

Janice Porter: 00:24:06

it's, you know, I just did a an outline with somebody that I

Janice Porter: 00:24:11

was, I'm going to do a joint webinar with, and got it to pull

Janice Porter: 00:24:17

up a format that I was asking it about and stuff. And so it gave

Janice Porter: 00:24:21

us a guideline to get started, because we don't know each other

Janice Porter: 00:24:23

that well, and so I'm trying to build that relationship at the

Janice Porter: 00:24:27

same time. So yeah, it's kind of interesting. It

Donna Cravotta: 00:24:30

is interesting. One of the things that I did not

Donna Cravotta: 00:24:33

too long ago for a client was I explained what the client does,

Donna Cravotta: 00:24:39

and then I said, Where is there overlap with Brene Brown's work

Donna Cravotta: 00:24:44

from her book, The Atlas of the heart, okay? And it gave me all

Donna Cravotta: 00:24:49

of like these areas where I can incorporate some of the work

Donna Cravotta: 00:24:53

that she shares publicly and online. You know, she's got a

Donna Cravotta: 00:24:56

gold hub on her website. Brene Brown does about i. About her

Donna Cravotta: 00:25:00

work around the atlas of the heart, and it just brought this

Donna Cravotta: 00:25:03

whole new level of it just it was just made everything so much

Donna Cravotta: 00:25:08

richer, because it brought in the whole emotional aspect of

Donna Cravotta: 00:25:12

the work that my client was doing and and to just see how it

Donna Cravotta: 00:25:16

dovetailed so nicely. Really showed the thought and the

Donna Cravotta: 00:25:19

effort that my client put into her work that it was able to

Donna Cravotta: 00:25:23

match up like with Brene Brown's work. That's

Janice Porter: 00:25:26

cool. So when you do something like that with a

Janice Porter: 00:25:30

client, do you do it with the client, or do you do it in the

Janice Porter: 00:25:33

back end?

Donna Cravotta: 00:25:34

It depends. Like, you know, sometimes, like

Donna Cravotta: 00:25:36

when we're working and be visible, we're kind of just

Donna Cravotta: 00:25:39

doing things together, ad hoc, but like, when I'm working with

Donna Cravotta: 00:25:43

a client and I'm putting together a strategy for them, I

Donna Cravotta: 00:25:46

lean into AI, and I kind of, you know, I did that myself, because

Donna Cravotta: 00:25:50

I'm like, Okay, I was getting curious with all the different

Donna Cravotta: 00:25:53

resources and tools that I use. But what I do is, when I find

Donna Cravotta: 00:25:56

something like that, I share it with the client. And that's one

Donna Cravotta: 00:25:59

of the things I like about perplexity too, is you can share

Donna Cravotta: 00:26:01

a link to the chat and share it with a client, and then they can

Donna Cravotta: 00:26:06

keep working on it with what you started.

Janice Porter: 00:26:08

Yeah, okay, so you're teaching them as well how

Janice Porter: 00:26:10

to use it in a way.

Donna Cravotta: 00:26:11

I think, I think it's critical that we all know

Donna Cravotta: 00:26:14

how to use this. I

Janice Porter: 00:26:15

do too. I do too. Now, just curious on a side

Janice Porter: 00:26:19

note, then, has your son started using it? And no, okay,

Donna Cravotta: 00:26:25

no, my Sam, my son who's about to graduate with

Donna Cravotta: 00:26:28

a digital media production degree. No, interesting. That

Donna Cravotta: 00:26:32

went out,

Janice Porter: 00:26:34

yeah, I know, like, yes, and my daughter is

Janice Porter: 00:26:37

the same. I mean, they're older than your son, but one is taking

Janice Porter: 00:26:43

is doing well with it, and the other is just starting to see

Janice Porter: 00:26:46

how it could help her. But she's not asking me any questions,

Janice Porter: 00:26:49

because I don't know anything. So there you go. Yeah, when

Donna Cravotta: 00:26:53

he's ready, I have, I have the whole

Donna Cravotta: 00:26:55

trajectory for him of what he needs to learn, but I'm not

Donna Cravotta: 00:26:59

going to, I'm not going to argue with him. He's 22 when he has

Donna Cravotta: 00:27:03

everything, he

Janice Porter: 00:27:03

knows everything, yeah, exactly he knows

Janice Porter: 00:27:05

everything, yeah.

Unknown: 00:27:07

So

Janice Porter: 00:27:10

was I going to say? Okay, I guess I want to ask

Janice Porter: 00:27:15

you what? What's one piece of advice that you would give to

Janice Porter: 00:27:19

business owners or professionals who are just starting their

Janice Porter: 00:27:21

journey to become more visible and engage their audience

Janice Porter: 00:27:25

effectively,

Donna Cravotta: 00:27:28

to trust themselves. Okay? Because I

Donna Cravotta: 00:27:33

think when people you know, there is this whole posse of

Donna Cravotta: 00:27:37

people that are just waiting for new online business owners to

Donna Cravotta: 00:27:40

show up to sell them things they don't need. Yeah, trust

Donna Cravotta: 00:27:44

yourself. You won't buy them.

Janice Porter: 00:27:46

I know I hear it so often,

Donna Cravotta: 00:27:48

you could spend years digging yourself out of

Donna Cravotta: 00:27:50

that, or you can just go out of business because you don't have

Donna Cravotta: 00:27:53

the resources to actually build a business after you've wasted

Donna Cravotta: 00:27:58

your time and your money. I

Janice Porter: 00:27:59

know I can't tell you the number of people that

Janice Porter: 00:28:02

have hired very expensive coaches, and all they get is

Janice Porter: 00:28:07

online courses or the odd online connection with that person.

Janice Porter: 00:28:11

They very rarely see that person. Yeah, and I mean,

Donna Cravotta: 00:28:15

you've got to put yourself in the trenches.

Donna Cravotta: 00:28:17

You've got to listen and learn, figure out who's doing it? Well,

Donna Cravotta: 00:28:21

what I've learned? I mean, next month, I'll be in business 18

Donna Cravotta: 00:28:25

years. So I grew up with the internet, you know? We I, when I

Donna Cravotta: 00:28:29

started my business, there was no social media, right? And you

Donna Cravotta: 00:28:35

really need to learn how to trust yourself and know who

Donna Cravotta: 00:28:37

you're working with, know who your client is, know what you do

Donna Cravotta: 00:28:41

for them, why you do it for them, and the impact that it

Donna Cravotta: 00:28:43

makes. And once you really solid in that the decisions you're

Donna Cravotta: 00:28:47

making are coming from that, and that's your values, that's your

Donna Cravotta: 00:28:51

why, that's your mission, and that's how you help people. So

Donna Cravotta: 00:28:56

that really becomes a very strong barometer in what you

Donna Cravotta: 00:28:59

need and what you don't need in your business, like, something

Donna Cravotta: 00:29:02

that you can equate it to, like, when you have a baby for the

Donna Cravotta: 00:29:04

first time, you have this whole list of things you think you

Donna Cravotta: 00:29:07

need and you don't really need that much. All I

Janice Porter: 00:29:11

remember always saying is, nobody told me about

Janice Porter: 00:29:13

this. Nobody told me about that. This wasn't in a book, you know,

Janice Porter: 00:29:17

yeah,

Donna Cravotta: 00:29:17

but, but the things that like, if you go into

Donna Cravotta: 00:29:19

like, a baby store, they'll give you a list a mile long of all of

Donna Cravotta: 00:29:23

the things that you need. You don't need most of them. You

Donna Cravotta: 00:29:26

don't need, you know, diaper warmers and you don't need all

Donna Cravotta: 00:29:30

that stuff, but you need, you need a way to feed your baby, a

Donna Cravotta: 00:29:33

way to bathe your baby, a way to soothe your baby, and a way to,

Donna Cravotta: 00:29:37

like, you know, get them to sleep. You don't need much more

Donna Cravotta: 00:29:41

than that. And it's the same thing with a business. You don't

Donna Cravotta: 00:29:43

need that much when you're starting, because everything

Donna Cravotta: 00:29:45

that you're going to do in the beginning is going to change up

Donna Cravotta: 00:29:50

here, everywhere, everywhere, like what you know. Think about

Donna Cravotta: 00:29:54

when you started your business. How many things are you still

Donna Cravotta: 00:29:56

doing?

Janice Porter: 00:29:57

You find that it's funny. I decided. Did. I

Janice Porter: 00:30:00

was invited to this book launch that's later today, a friend of

Janice Porter: 00:30:05

mine and an ex client launching her book. And she was a

Janice Porter: 00:30:09

politician here for a long time, and has an interesting story,

Janice Porter: 00:30:14

but she doesn't live in Vancouver anymore, and she's

Janice Porter: 00:30:17

coming down here to do one of her book launches, and it

Janice Porter: 00:30:19

happens to be right when the our local, our provincial in Canada,

Janice Porter: 00:30:27

we have provinces in our provincial election is happening

Janice Porter: 00:30:31

soon, so I thought, well, you know, maybe I'll go the I don't

Janice Porter: 00:30:34

know who I'm going to see there, or meet there, whatever, but I

Janice Porter: 00:30:37

don't go to many in person things anymore, and I'm already

Janice Porter: 00:30:41

thinking, well, if I get there on time, I can probably sneak

Janice Porter: 00:30:44

out about an hour and a half. That's what I'm already

Janice Porter: 00:30:46

thinking. But I'm also thinking, I don't even take business cards

Janice Porter: 00:30:50

anywhere, any I don't have any that are up to date. I just take

Janice Porter: 00:30:53

my phone now, you know, and it's got all I need. So I'm going to

Janice Porter: 00:30:58

go for a little while anyway, as long as it's not pouring with

Janice Porter: 00:31:01

rain, which it seems to be trying to do today. But anyway,

Janice Porter: 00:31:04

you just never know. You know who you're going to meet or

Janice Porter: 00:31:07

reconnect with. So, so I'm going to do that. So um, so I just

Janice Porter: 00:31:14

want to clarify. So when you're working you've got your be

Janice Porter: 00:31:17

visible mastermind community, and you've got your real 50,

Janice Porter: 00:31:22

over 50. Do you work one on one with clients as well, and in

Janice Porter: 00:31:27

that, are you doing their marketing plan with them? Is

Janice Porter: 00:31:30

that what you're doing, or are you just taking their business

Janice Porter: 00:31:32

and starting it from the bottom up again?

Donna Cravotta: 00:31:35

It's, you know, most of the work that I'm doing

Donna Cravotta: 00:31:38

with clients is all around visibility, but it touches

Donna Cravotta: 00:31:41

everything. So when I work with clients, I go through everything

Donna Cravotta: 00:31:46

that they're doing. Like one client I worked with not too

Donna Cravotta: 00:31:49

long ago, what she needed was she needed a lot of advice on

Donna Cravotta: 00:31:53

her website, because there were things that just needed to be

Donna Cravotta: 00:31:57

fixed. So about half of the work that we did was just me doing a

Donna Cravotta: 00:32:02

website audit for her, and she made all the changes, and it's

Donna Cravotta: 00:32:06

already making an impact, you know. So I meet people where

Donna Cravotta: 00:32:10

they are. I don't do a lot of implementation work anymore. I

Donna Cravotta: 00:32:14

don't focus a lot on social media, because I focus more on

Donna Cravotta: 00:32:18

content development and strategy, because then you could

Donna Cravotta: 00:32:21

take that content you could share, and because the social

Donna Cravotta: 00:32:26

media platforms are changing so much, and you just never know

Donna Cravotta: 00:32:31

where your audience is, so they really need to learn how to

Donna Cravotta: 00:32:33

listen to where their audience is.

Janice Porter: 00:32:35

Well, that's what I was just going to say. They

Janice Porter: 00:32:37

don't need to be everywhere, but they need to be where their

Janice Porter: 00:32:39

audience is not where they like to be, necessarily. They have to

Janice Porter: 00:32:43

learn where that right platform for them is.

Donna Cravotta: 00:32:46

Again, it's a lot easier than people make it

Donna Cravotta: 00:32:50

out to be. Of course, you don't need to do if Instagram does 800

Donna Cravotta: 00:32:54

things, you probably need like 10, yeah, yeah. And by paying

Donna Cravotta: 00:33:00

attention and listening and seeing. You know what people

Donna Cravotta: 00:33:03

respond to. You figure out what those 10 things are. And I kind

Donna Cravotta: 00:33:06

of push people into the figuring out part, because once you know

Donna Cravotta: 00:33:10

that, you can figure this out again, you don't make the bad

Donna Cravotta: 00:33:14

choices

Janice Porter: 00:33:15

right, right? And so when you say helping people

Janice Porter: 00:33:19

be visible, it's more about being visible on their website

Janice Porter: 00:33:25

that will draw attention.

Donna Cravotta: 00:33:28

It's everywhere. Okay,

Janice Porter: 00:33:29

do you encourage people to do? Sorry, go ahead.

Donna Cravotta: 00:33:33

It's about being intentionally busy, not just not

Donna Cravotta: 00:33:37

just push Not, not just pushing out. Yeah, stopping first and

Donna Cravotta: 00:33:41

figuring out where you should be, like, where are your knowing

Donna Cravotta: 00:33:45

your clients? Where are they, and not just clients, like I

Donna Cravotta: 00:33:48

speak in audience, because, yes, people come into the world in

Donna Cravotta: 00:33:52

all different ways. I mean, it could be, you know, through the

Donna Cravotta: 00:33:55

media. It could be podcast, it could be vendors that you work

Donna Cravotta: 00:33:57

with. It could be, you know, the tools that you use in your

Donna Cravotta: 00:34:01

business. So opportunities come in all different ways, and I

Donna Cravotta: 00:34:07

gotta let my cat in because the landscapers are here. I'm sorry.

Janice Porter: 00:34:15

All right, so we're just going to wrap up. I'm

Janice Porter: 00:34:21

going to ask you a couple quick questions. First of all, my

Janice Porter: 00:34:26

favorite word is curiosity, and I'm sure you love that word too.

Janice Porter: 00:34:29

I just know, and I want to know a two part question. One, do you

Janice Porter: 00:34:35

think that curiosity is innate or learned? And part two, what

Janice Porter: 00:34:40

are you most curious about these days?

Donna Cravotta: 00:34:43

So for part one of the question, I think it's

Donna Cravotta: 00:34:47

both okay. I think that we all have curiosity inside of us, but

Donna Cravotta: 00:34:54

it's more readily accessible to some than others. Okay? And I

Donna Cravotta: 00:34:59

think we need. Who really explore the things that make us

Donna Cravotta: 00:35:03

curious and cultivate that? Because I really believe that

Donna Cravotta: 00:35:06

curiosity is the thing that keeps us young at heart. It

Donna Cravotta: 00:35:10

keeps us young that keeps us constantly learning. Since my

Donna Cravotta: 00:35:15

son was a little boy, I signed every one of his cards with I

Donna Cravotta: 00:35:20

love you. Stay curious. Oh, really.

Janice Porter: 00:35:23

Oh, that's brilliant. I

Donna Cravotta: 00:35:24

really do think that, you know, that's the thing

Donna Cravotta: 00:35:27

that sparks everything else. Yes, the thing that continues to

Donna Cravotta: 00:35:30

do something, to learn something, to find something.

Donna Cravotta: 00:35:33

And then what I'm curious about is, I'm just curious about

Donna Cravotta: 00:35:38

people and like, what happens when people connect? And this is

Donna Cravotta: 00:35:42

like, one of the gifts that I've received from the real 50 over

Donna Cravotta: 00:35:45

50 community is, like, it's just I listen to myself. Like, when

Donna Cravotta: 00:35:51

I'm talking to somebody, I'm listening to who do they need to

Donna Cravotta: 00:35:54

know? How can I connect them with? Like, what happens when

Donna Cravotta: 00:35:58

they meet? Like, what are the things that will happen that

Donna Cravotta: 00:36:00

wouldn't have happened if they didn't meet, and that always

Donna Cravotta: 00:36:04

gets me curious, because we really need each other. Yeah,

Janice Porter: 00:36:10

yeah. It's great. That's super Thank you. You

Janice Porter: 00:36:15

consume a lot of information yourself. Do you is your go to

Janice Porter: 00:36:20

reading a real book, or audio listening, or video listening,

Janice Porter: 00:36:27

podcasts, television. What is it? Okay? Okay.

Donna Cravotta: 00:36:34

I don't read as many books as I used to, because

Donna Cravotta: 00:36:36

my eyes are just so tired at the end of the day. But I listen to

Donna Cravotta: 00:36:41

a lot of audio books, and when there's a book that I love, I'll

Donna Cravotta: 00:36:44

get the print version too, and I'm like writing in the book

Donna Cravotta: 00:36:47

while I'm listening to it.

Janice Porter: 00:36:48

So I'm guessing those are business related

Janice Porter: 00:36:51

books, or self or personal development books, not novels.

Donna Cravotta: 00:36:55

No, I haven't read a novel in a long time. I

Donna Cravotta: 00:36:57

want to, but I just don't have the time. I

Janice Porter: 00:36:59

know I'm the same way. I did read one a few years

Janice Porter: 00:37:02

ago. Oh, what was it called? About the young girl in

Janice Porter: 00:37:11

Louisiana? Oh, crawfish, where the crawdads and, yeah, that was

Janice Porter: 00:37:17

good. And then I started to try and read lessons in chemistry.

Janice Porter: 00:37:21

And then I saw that it was on Apple TV, and I thought, oh,

Janice Porter: 00:37:24

it's drawing me to go watch it instead, because I got through,

Janice Porter: 00:37:27

yeah, it was really good, yeah, but the book is really good too.

Janice Porter: 00:37:30

But I just It got a bit I'm glad I saw it on, on the red I

Janice Porter: 00:37:34

watched, or I read three chapters, and it wasn't staying

Janice Porter: 00:37:37

there with me. But anyway, so that's kind of fun. But yeah,

Janice Porter: 00:37:40

generally for me, it's, it's business books, because people

Janice Porter: 00:37:43

are on my podcast and I like to read their books, but it's hard

Janice Porter: 00:37:47

to get through them all. Anyway, this has been delightful. Thank

Janice Porter: 00:37:50

you so much, and thank my audience for being here. And if

Janice Porter: 00:37:54

you have any questions for Donna, you can find her at

Janice Porter: 00:37:58

cravata Media Group, and I will put her details in the in the

Janice Porter: 00:38:03

chat and Donna, do you want? They'll see anything about the

Janice Porter: 00:38:08

real 50 over 50 and and the be visible club as well, right?

Donna Cravotta: 00:38:14

Yeah, everything's on my website,

Donna Cravotta: 00:38:15

perfect. Alright, I

Janice Porter: 00:38:16

encourage you to go check it out, because Donna

Janice Porter: 00:38:19

doing great work, and it's all about relationships. So thank

Janice Porter: 00:38:24

you again, and remember to stay connected and be remembered.

Donna Cravotta: 00:38:29

Thank you. Bye.