Sell Less, Connect More, and Raise Your Rates with Confidence with John Ray | RR310

Janice Porter: 00:00:02

John, Hello everyone, and welcome back to

Janice Porter: 00:00:05

relationships rule, where we explore how authentic human

Janice Porter: 00:00:09

connection is the key in thriving business. Today's guest

Janice Porter: 00:00:14

John Ray is someone whose work truly resonates with my own core

Janice Porter: 00:00:18

belief that relationships come first. John is a pricing

Janice Porter: 00:00:22

strategist, a business advisor, and author of this amazing book,

Janice Porter: 00:00:26

The generosity mindset. He is also the host of the price and

Janice Porter: 00:00:32

value Journey podcast on which I was a guest last week and had so

Janice Porter: 00:00:35

much fun. In this episode, we're going to look at how generosity,

Janice Porter: 00:00:39

when it's sincere and strategic, can be a powerful force for

Janice Porter: 00:00:43

building trust, creating impact and growing a sustainable

Janice Porter: 00:00:47

service based business. Whether you're a solo consultant, coach

Janice Porter: 00:00:51

or small firm professional, I think you're going to love what

Janice Porter: 00:00:53

we're talking about today. So welcome to the show. John

John Ray: 00:00:57

Janice, it's a pleasure. Thank you so much for

John Ray: 00:00:59

having me. Thanks also for coming on my show. You were

John Ray: 00:01:03

fantastic. Wow. Well,

Janice Porter: 00:01:05

it was fun, and I really enjoyed it. I came off

Janice Porter: 00:01:07

that interview on a high because you're a great interviewer, and

Janice Porter: 00:01:11

I learned in your book that you like whatever his name was, Ken.

Janice Porter: 00:01:15

Was it the guy that bought the Remington company? You bought

Janice Porter: 00:01:19

the company and became a podcast host. That's right, right? You

John Ray: 00:01:23

know, loved it. So much about the company. Yeah,

John Ray: 00:01:26

that's kind of my story on podcasting,

Janice Porter: 00:01:28

right? And you've been, I thought I was pretty

Janice Porter: 00:01:31

proud of 300 episodes. You've done. How many 100 episodes? A

Janice Porter: 00:01:35

couple of 1000, I think, well,

John Ray: 00:01:38

I've, I've done as a host. I've done around 1200 or

John Ray: 00:01:43

so. I don't know the exact number. It's around 1200 or so,

John Ray: 00:01:48

but now when you get to 300 episodes, you're a champion. So

John Ray: 00:01:52

congratulations on that. Oh

Janice Porter: 00:01:54

yeah, no, I wasn't looking for that. I was

Janice Porter: 00:01:56

just pretty impressed with what you do, and you did such a great

Janice Porter: 00:01:59

job as well. Okay, I'd like to dig into this book, because I

Janice Porter: 00:02:04

really enjoyed reading it. And I think it's, it's, there's a lot

Janice Porter: 00:02:08

of lessons in it for small business owners and

Janice Porter: 00:02:11

entrepreneurs that that I was reading and going, Oh yeah, that

Janice Porter: 00:02:16

makes so much sense. And I also, I think what made it easy for

Janice Porter: 00:02:20

me. And what I loved reading were the stories. I love the

Janice Porter: 00:02:23

stories. And, you know, that's the whole thing, right? If

Janice Porter: 00:02:26

people can can identify it with the stories, then it sinks in a

Janice Porter: 00:02:31

little bit better. So, first of all, I think you were in

Janice Porter: 00:02:38

corporate right? For many, many years, yes, yes, as most of us

Janice Porter: 00:02:41

were, and then right leave corporate and and some of us

Janice Porter: 00:02:46

thrive, and some of us struggle for a while. And I had a guest

Janice Porter: 00:02:49

on my show actually just went live today, yes, today,

Janice Porter: 00:02:53

yesterday, David Shriner Khan, and he talks about corporate

Janice Porter: 00:02:57

refugees and how he helps them succeed in business. And so, you

Janice Porter: 00:03:03

know, a lot of us are corporate refugees and and trying to

Janice Porter: 00:03:06

figure it out. So you must have figured it out early, if you

Janice Porter: 00:03:10

then turn to helping other service providers. So what, what

Janice Porter: 00:03:16

was it for you? Did you know when you left corporate this is

Janice Porter: 00:03:19

what you were going to do? Or did you have a little struggle

Janice Porter: 00:03:22

along the way? Oh,

John Ray: 00:03:23

thank you for giving me so much credit, like I knew

John Ray: 00:03:25

what I was doing. I really I'm so grateful for that. I'm hiring

John Ray: 00:03:30

you as my PR person. Okay? Now, no, of course not. You know, I

John Ray: 00:03:37

had my struggles and and, I mean, I had, you know, there was

John Ray: 00:03:43

a lot, like a lot of people there, in corporate there, there

John Ray: 00:03:45

was a lot that I was perfectly suited to do, and I've always

John Ray: 00:03:51

had a mindset around relationships and the importance

John Ray: 00:03:56

of relationships, But that becomes a lot sharper for you

John Ray: 00:04:02

when you're out on your own, in your own business, and you're

John Ray: 00:04:07

having to, you know, as the old saying goes, eat what you kill.

John Ray: 00:04:12

You know, there, there's, there's that piece of it. And

John Ray: 00:04:16

let me tell you where my nose really got bloodied. It was,

John Ray: 00:04:19

it's, it was in pricing. Yeah, so, you know, I've I've got all

John Ray: 00:04:24

the T shirts, I've got all I've made all the mistakes. And

John Ray: 00:04:30

here's what I learned, is that what I saw is my own problems

John Ray: 00:04:36

with this, and what I also saw is my clients that had problems

John Ray: 00:04:41

with pricing, and that made me passionate about it, and I got

John Ray: 00:04:45

really passionate about it as I dug into it and realized there's

John Ray: 00:04:48

not a lot of places for a business owner to to to solve

John Ray: 00:04:54

that problem. So if you for example, this is just 1v Yet,

John Ray: 00:05:01

the book, small business for dummies. I hate the title, yeah,

John Ray: 00:05:05

but, but it's got 250 pages, and a grand total of four and a half

John Ray: 00:05:11

of those 250 pages is devoted to pricing. Wow, yes, says it all.

John Ray: 00:05:17

And it's that those four four pages are written at about

John Ray: 00:05:20

80,000 feet. I mean, there's not much you can do with what's

John Ray: 00:05:25

there. So the point is, is that there's, like no place to go.

John Ray: 00:05:30

And so that's, that's what got me passionate about it. And I

John Ray: 00:05:35

just saw so many people struggling. And eventually, of

John Ray: 00:05:38

course, as I got into it. It ultimately led to the book.

Janice Porter: 00:05:43

Yeah, I was just going to say, when did you write

Janice Porter: 00:05:45

this book?

Unknown: 00:05:47

Well, it was released at the end of 2023

Janice Porter: 00:05:50

okay, okay, so it was a COVID project, possibly,

John Ray: 00:05:54

no, no, no. It was, you know what it was? Well, it

John Ray: 00:05:58

was kind of a COVID project, you might say, in a way. You know, a

John Ray: 00:06:00

lot of us came out of COVID saying all those things that we

John Ray: 00:06:04

think we need to do, that we boxes, we need to check. It's

John Ray: 00:06:08

really time to get get at it. And that was what this was for

John Ray: 00:06:12

me, is, hey, this is time to get at it, sure.

Janice Porter: 00:06:15

Okay, so we met on LinkedIn, which I love, and

Janice Porter: 00:06:19

what attracted me to read further was the picture of your

Janice Porter: 00:06:24

book in the banner on LinkedIn, because I love the title, the

Janice Porter: 00:06:29

generosity mindset, a journey to business success by raising your

Janice Porter: 00:06:33

confidence value and prices. So let's start there, confidence

Janice Porter: 00:06:37

and value first and then pricing. Okay? Because the

Janice Porter: 00:06:44

biggest aha for me was that value conversation. So can you

Janice Porter: 00:06:48

just sort of save with the big let's start with the big

Janice Porter: 00:06:52

picture. What does this mean to you and the generosity mindset?

Janice Porter: 00:06:56

And let's, let's just start there. Yeah,

John Ray: 00:06:59

sure. So it's a bit counterintuitive, is it not? I

John Ray: 00:07:04

mean that that generosity, that generosity leads to better

John Ray: 00:07:09

pricing, huh? Yeah, yeah, right. And I guess that that helps me

John Ray: 00:07:16

dispense of one misconception right off the bat is we're not

John Ray: 00:07:20

talking about giving anything away, per se. Well, yeah, sure,

John Ray: 00:07:26

you can be strategic in the things that you do for others,

John Ray: 00:07:30

but what we're talking about here is getting out of your own

John Ray: 00:07:34

head and in serving others first and being generous using a much

John Ray: 00:07:41

broader definition of that word, look out for others. First,

John Ray: 00:07:48

what? What are their needs, hopes, wants, desires, fears

John Ray: 00:07:52

that you can help them with, regardless of whether that

John Ray: 00:07:55

benefits you in the short run or not.

Janice Porter: 00:07:58

And, right? Yeah, yeah, totally agree. Yeah,

Janice Porter: 00:08:01

right.

John Ray: 00:08:02

And if you're known as that person, and if you follow

John Ray: 00:08:06

this falsely, by the way, you will be that person. Because the

John Ray: 00:08:09

truth of the matter is, there's not a lot of competition on the

John Ray: 00:08:12

relationship Street.

Janice Porter: 00:08:15

It's strange, but true, right? Yes, right, despite

John Ray: 00:08:18

all your efforts, after 300 podcasts, Janice, you

John Ray: 00:08:23

know, there's just not a lot of people that really do it.

John Ray: 00:08:25

There's a lot of people that say they're do it, but if you really

John Ray: 00:08:30

do it, you're known for being a connector. You're known for

John Ray: 00:08:33

being a person that looks out for other people. And what that

John Ray: 00:08:38

does is it brings people back to you. The universe wants to help

John Ray: 00:08:44

you.

Janice Porter: 00:08:45

The Law of Reciprocity, right? The Law of

John Ray: 00:08:47

Reciprocity? Yeah, exactly. And

Janice Porter: 00:08:50

it's funny, because, as you know, I'm

Janice Porter: 00:08:53

involved with a greeting card company that has been part of my

Janice Porter: 00:08:58

world for 16 years now, and that's just we, we preach that

Janice Porter: 00:09:03

all the time. It's like, send out to give. Don't send out to

Janice Porter: 00:09:06

get because you send out to give, you don't know the

Janice Porter: 00:09:09

universe will come back 1010, fold, and it won't necessarily

Janice Porter: 00:09:13

be from that same person. So that's the philosophy that I've

Janice Porter: 00:09:18

I've sort of looked at for free or actually not looked at, but,

Janice Porter: 00:09:23

but walk that walk for this many years. So in the in the first

Janice Porter: 00:09:30

part of your book, and when you're talking about value, the

Janice Porter: 00:09:33

value that that you have, the sorry, that your value for, your

Janice Porter: 00:09:40

what you do and for who you are is not necessarily the same as

Janice Porter: 00:09:45

how you're perceived. It's perceived value. And that's

Janice Porter: 00:09:48

huge, because I realized when I was reading this that sometimes

Janice Porter: 00:09:55

when I'm talking to a prospect, and I'll admit it, I've been

Janice Porter: 00:09:58

doing this for a long time. Mind. But there are times when

Janice Porter: 00:10:01

you go, oops, I shouldn't have done that, or I did it the wrong

Janice Porter: 00:10:03

way, or whatever. It's never perfect. And when it comes to

Janice Porter: 00:10:07

talking about, you know, yourself, or about getting

Janice Porter: 00:10:11

business and or talking those, you know, pricing, all of that

Janice Porter: 00:10:14

stuff, we forget that. It who cares about me. It's what they

Janice Porter: 00:10:19

see and what they want to have happen, and if I don't as the if

Janice Porter: 00:10:25

they're my prospect and I don't understand that, then I'm not

Janice Porter: 00:10:27

going to get anywhere, and I'm not going to satisfy them. So

Janice Porter: 00:10:31

how do you how do you can you teach that like or is it

Janice Porter: 00:10:37

innate? I mean, that's the thing.

John Ray: 00:10:41

Well, for some people, it is innate, but here's, here's

John Ray: 00:10:44

what we've and you're a teacher, so you'll get this immediately.

John Ray: 00:10:49

We are taught in a way as we're coming up that works against us.

John Ray: 00:10:56

It teaches us skills and it teaches us whatever craft we

John Ray: 00:11:02

have, but we are taught we're supposed to have the right

John Ray: 00:11:07

answer. We're not taught how to ask questions right we're taught

John Ray: 00:11:12

to give answers. And the idea here is to get skilled in asking

John Ray: 00:11:18

questions. Bingo, to be use the word you use a lot, to be

John Ray: 00:11:22

curious, yeah, to ask questions, to learn where people's heads

John Ray: 00:11:28

are, and not just ask a question, but follow up on that

John Ray: 00:11:32

question, right? And so that's the skill we have to develop,

John Ray: 00:11:37

and that is, yeah, I think it is innate for some people, but I

John Ray: 00:11:42

think for a lot of us who are particularly in the professional

John Ray: 00:11:46

services business, where we've got a particular expertise that

John Ray: 00:11:51

we're drilled on, and we've done the work for years, and we know

John Ray: 00:11:58

the answers. For a lot of people, we're just used to

John Ray: 00:12:02

spouting those out. And what I'm suggesting is to pump the

John Ray: 00:12:07

brakes, and let's get into the head of our clients. And what we

John Ray: 00:12:12

will find if we do that, is we will find that they see value in

John Ray: 00:12:18

us, that we don't see ourselves.

Janice Porter: 00:12:22

And that is okay. Okay, say that Anne, they see

Janice Porter: 00:12:25

value in us, that we don't see ourselves Correct, correct. So

Janice Porter: 00:12:32

give me an example of that, please. Yeah. It's huge,

John Ray: 00:12:36

yeah. So for example, when we start asking questions

John Ray: 00:12:43

like, well, let me tell you a story, maybe that's a way to get

John Ray: 00:12:47

at this. So, yeah, so I was with a client. This may be in the

John Ray: 00:12:54

book. I can't remember I put this in the book or not, but I

John Ray: 00:12:57

was with a client who I had been referred to, and he's going on

John Ray: 00:13:06

and on about all the great things that are going on in his

John Ray: 00:13:08

business. And, you know, after a while, I'm thinking I marked

John Ray: 00:13:11

this page. Oh, you did. Okay, good, yeah, yeah. I'm glad

John Ray: 00:13:17

that's in there. Yeah. He he went on and on about how

John Ray: 00:13:22

wonderful everything was. And I'm thinking, why did I get

John Ray: 00:13:24

referred to this person? Right? What's the problem here? Well,

John Ray: 00:13:28

his spouse came in the room, and we did the introductions, and

John Ray: 00:13:33

when she found out who I was, she was like, Oh my gosh, thank

John Ray: 00:13:37

you so much for being here. Like, we need you so badly. And

John Ray: 00:13:40

she just proceeded to, like the truth blew in the room. I mean,

John Ray: 00:13:43

right, right. And so the the his problem was not just with the

John Ray: 00:13:52

business and all the things that I found out ultimately in the

John Ray: 00:13:57

conversation, his problem was the spouse. She wasn't happy.

John Ray: 00:14:03

And so I wasn't there just to solve his business problems or

John Ray: 00:14:09

walk him through that. I was there to help a relationship

John Ray: 00:14:14

that was frayed because of this business. Yeah, wow. And so now,

John Ray: 00:14:19

when you start talking about that, that value is enormous.

John Ray: 00:14:24

Yes, I hear you, and you see, if we don't ask the question

John Ray: 00:14:29

questions, like in a discovery call with a client, if we're not

John Ray: 00:14:33

asking questions like, well, you know, how does your spouse feel

John Ray: 00:14:36

about all this? See, then we don't find these things out,

John Ray: 00:14:42

yeah, and we don't find out where clients see value, and

John Ray: 00:14:45

what we do if we get there, what we'll see is they see much, much

John Ray: 00:14:50

more value than we see ourselves, and because all we're

John Ray: 00:14:55

looking at is the job, right, right? That uses our. Skills not

John Ray: 00:15:01

the outcomes that come out of the transformation that we

John Ray: 00:15:05

bring.

Janice Porter: 00:15:07

And in what you just described is having the the

Janice Porter: 00:15:15

skill as well. I have to call it a skill of being a really,

Janice Porter: 00:15:18

really good listener. We know we have to know how to ask the

Janice Porter: 00:15:21

right questions, which takes curiosity. I believe that we

Janice Porter: 00:15:26

have to do that. And then it's about asking, and then it's

Janice Porter: 00:15:29

about listening, and really listening. And I already today,

Janice Porter: 00:15:34

heard you say a couple of things about me that, and we don't know

Janice Porter: 00:15:38

each other that well. We've had maybe three conversations, but

Janice Porter: 00:15:42

you have come back to me with I know you're a curious person,

Janice Porter: 00:15:46

Janice, so you've done your homework, and you know I'm a

Janice Porter: 00:15:49

teacher, and you know you've said these things to me that

Janice Porter: 00:15:52

make me notice, that you've paid attention. So those things are

Janice Porter: 00:15:56

important in having that conversation, to think he

Janice Porter: 00:16:00

understands me. He knows where I'm coming from, and so I think

Janice Porter: 00:16:04

the questions and the listening skills are super huge. So how do

Janice Porter: 00:16:09

you then show that you well, because you go from the value

Janice Porter: 00:16:19

conversation where they spill their beans here and in this

Janice Porter: 00:16:24

example you've given, and now you've got to bring it around to

Janice Porter: 00:16:27

how you can help them that will not just help the business, but

Janice Porter: 00:16:31

everything else. So is that in the same conversation? Is it?

Janice Porter: 00:16:36

Does money get talked about in that conversation? Yeah,

John Ray: 00:16:40

that's a great question. It so it depends on

John Ray: 00:16:44

the client. What I would say as a general proposition is your

John Ray: 00:16:51

ability to price is either constrained or enabled by the

John Ray: 00:16:59

depth of the value conversation that you're willing to have with

John Ray: 00:17:04

a client, and sometimes that value conversation is a couple

John Ray: 00:17:12

of conversations, maybe even more, that you have over time.

John Ray: 00:17:18

If it's a client, a current client, you're always having a

John Ray: 00:17:22

value conversation, I think is it's ongoing, is, you know,

John Ray: 00:17:28

because you're checking in to see where the client sees value

John Ray: 00:17:32

in the whatever transformation You're helping to enable. So

John Ray: 00:17:39

that's, I think it really depends on your willingness to

John Ray: 00:17:44

have the conversation. But then, of course, some clients are

John Ray: 00:17:47

impatient, right? They want to get to what the bottom line is,

John Ray: 00:17:51

what the pricing is, and that kind of thing. And you can be

John Ray: 00:17:57

herded into that because you kind of want to get there too.

John Ray: 00:18:01

You want to start talking about what the scope is and all that

John Ray: 00:18:04

kind of stuff. So it really there's some conversational

John Ray: 00:18:10

muscle that we have to develop here, and it takes some

John Ray: 00:18:14

practice. This is why I call one reason. I call my podcast the

John Ray: 00:18:19

price and value journey. It's a journey. We're learning these

John Ray: 00:18:22

things, right? That's true.

Janice Porter: 00:18:23

True, knowing when to speak price and when to

Janice Porter: 00:18:26

when is the right time or not. Sometimes, though, they come in

Janice Porter: 00:18:29

at the beginning, and you talk about this in the book as well,

Janice Porter: 00:18:32

and they say, so how much do you How much do you charge? And you

Janice Porter: 00:18:35

don't even know them. And you know that, right? So you have a

Janice Porter: 00:18:38

great answer for that. I think you already used it once. It

Janice Porter: 00:18:42

depends, right?

John Ray: 00:18:44

Well, yeah. I mean, if I understand your your interest

John Ray: 00:18:48

in that, it here's the deal. All my clients are a little

John Ray: 00:18:52

different, and they have different needs and and

John Ray: 00:18:56

concerns, and we need to have a conversation about your

John Ray: 00:19:02

business. And first of all, even just to decide whether I'm the

John Ray: 00:19:06

right fit, because I may not be the right fit, yeah, and, and if

John Ray: 00:19:10

I'm not, I'll find a good place to refer you, but it requires a

John Ray: 00:19:16

conversation, and, and, and so that I can help you understand,

John Ray: 00:19:23

like, what, what the best prescription is, I guess, for

John Ray: 00:19:27

your business, and then the pricing comes out of that.

Janice Porter: 00:19:33

So with the type of clients that you work with,

Janice Porter: 00:19:40

are some of them in businesses where they're kind of in and out

Janice Porter: 00:19:46

with clients, like maybe they do, you know, a few hours work

Janice Porter: 00:19:49

for them, and then it could be done. So because I feel

Janice Porter: 00:19:55

sometimes that the work that I do is is just a blip, a. Along

Janice Porter: 00:20:00

the way for these people to get them, you know, say, looking

Janice Porter: 00:20:03

better and and using LinkedIn more effectively, because they

Janice Porter: 00:20:08

don't really know how to use it. But I think sometimes it takes

Janice Porter: 00:20:11

more time, or could take more time than it does, because they

Janice Porter: 00:20:15

go as I have done in the past, where I've spent money on

Janice Porter: 00:20:19

something to learn a system or something, and then I don't go

Janice Porter: 00:20:23

back for the follow ups or the, you know, the the extra classes,

Janice Porter: 00:20:31

because I think I know what I'm doing and I don't. So how do you

Janice Porter: 00:20:36

think there's, there's opportunity there that, and how

Janice Porter: 00:20:40

would you go back to that opportunity so that you are

Janice Porter: 00:20:43

making those clients more long lasting clients, and therefore

Janice Porter: 00:20:49

better at being referral partners for you? Possibly,

John Ray: 00:20:54

yeah, that's a great question. So there are some

John Ray: 00:20:59

service providers who have short term engagements. And part of

John Ray: 00:21:09

what I think you have to develop is staged work for clients. So

John Ray: 00:21:18

what I mean by that is and develop options around those,

John Ray: 00:21:23

okay, so that's another thing I talk about in the book, is just

John Ray: 00:21:27

the power of options, you know, using a good, better, best

John Ray: 00:21:30

model. I love that, yeah. So what you can do is you can take

John Ray: 00:21:35

that, that model of of your the journey you take clients through

John Ray: 00:21:43

and in your business is a great example where you can do a

John Ray: 00:21:47

profile overhaul, but that only takes them so far on LinkedIn,

John Ray: 00:21:52

right? But there are some other things that you can do, which in

John Ray: 00:21:57

terms of helping them learn how to connect, build their network,

John Ray: 00:22:01

that kind of thing, right? And then there's, you know, how do

John Ray: 00:22:06

you know what to post? How do you do that? How you know? How

John Ray: 00:22:09

do you create content that's that's resonant, right? How do

John Ray: 00:22:15

you make comments that help build your network? I mean, so

John Ray: 00:22:19

this is something a lot deeper, right, right? We've just

John Ray: 00:22:23

described a good, better, best model right there. And so what

John Ray: 00:22:28

you can simply do is create a model that has these three

John Ray: 00:22:35

options. And the good is for folks that are just getting

John Ray: 00:22:42

their sea legs on LinkedIn, you might say, or have ignored it

John Ray: 00:22:45

for quite some time, right? They're just not ready to take

John Ray: 00:22:48

the full plunge, right? But what happens is, is that you've those

John Ray: 00:22:54

good clients, the ones that you've done that profile

John Ray: 00:22:58

overhaul for, they're sitting there waiting yes to the next

John Ray: 00:23:04

level, whenever they're ready. Yes and giving your skills at

John Ray: 00:23:08

relationship, uh, tending, shall we say, you're going to be

John Ray: 00:23:14

following up with them in a in a non salesy, elegant way to say,

John Ray: 00:23:20

hey, hey, not bugging you. Just here when you're ready.

Janice Porter: 00:23:23

Yeah, yeah. It's good to say that it's good

Janice Porter: 00:23:28

because I have the good better, best. It's always good for it

Janice Porter: 00:23:34

can always be overhauled. It can always be tweaked. But I think

Janice Porter: 00:23:39

I'm just like everybody else. I think I'm leaving money on the

Janice Porter: 00:23:42

table. I think I need to, you know, there's only so much time

Janice Porter: 00:23:45

in the day. And it's funny I say that I just I'm going into a

Janice Porter: 00:23:50

weekend this weekend where we're looking after my granddaughter,

Janice Porter: 00:23:55

who's five, and my daughter told me last night that she went she

Janice Porter: 00:23:59

woke up at 230 in the morning last night, never went back to

Janice Porter: 00:24:02

bed. And I'm like, seriously, this child doesn't sleep, yeah,

Janice Porter: 00:24:07

so I'm thinking about time in the day. It's time in the night

Janice Porter: 00:24:10

as well, right? Anyway, no, this is all good. This is all good.

Janice Porter: 00:24:15

So Well,

John Ray: 00:24:15

let me, let me make one other suggestion, if I can,

John Ray: 00:24:18

is that this is what you what you're developing. Here is

John Ray: 00:24:27

something that you're agnostic on. Where people come out is

John Ray: 00:24:33

that you don't care the way you're going to price. It is you

John Ray: 00:24:36

don't care whether they pick good, better or best. It's just

John Ray: 00:24:39

like when you pull into Starbucks, they could care less

John Ray: 00:24:43

what what particular drink you get. They could care less even

John Ray: 00:24:49

though they've got preferences off what they make the most

John Ray: 00:24:51

money on, right? So that's where your head needs to be, because

John Ray: 00:24:55

if you're that kind of professional of value, which you

John Ray: 00:24:58

are, um. Um, people are going to come back to you. They're going

John Ray: 00:25:03

to come back because, hey, this is so good. And I've gotten

John Ray: 00:25:07

results out of this. I need more. I need more than what,

John Ray: 00:25:10

what I signed up for, right?

Janice Porter: 00:25:13

No, I love it that that's that's so true. It's

Janice Porter: 00:25:15

like, and at the same time, if they just, for example, chose

Janice Porter: 00:25:19

the good option, and then you spent that time with them,

Janice Porter: 00:25:23

they've built the trust. You've built the trust with them that

Janice Porter: 00:25:26

will will also open that door to doing some more work when the

Janice Porter: 00:25:32

time is right. Yeah, they trust you for sure. So we've talked a

Janice Porter: 00:25:39

little bit about price already then. So there was something

Janice Porter: 00:25:43

else. So I was thinking about one of the stories in here. Oh,

Janice Porter: 00:25:49

no, just a minute I

Janice Porter: 00:25:53

it was something

Janice Porter: 00:25:55

I should have marked. Oh, okay, this is an interesting piece. I

Janice Porter: 00:26:01

thought selling to your own wallet. I liked that. Can you

Janice Porter: 00:26:07

speak to that? Do you want me to read anything here?

John Ray: 00:26:10

No. I mean, yeah. I think a lot of us that have done

John Ray: 00:26:16

this kind of know what we're talking about, right? That what

John Ray: 00:26:19

we're doing is we've, we've got, we're pre judging whether the

John Ray: 00:26:29

client is going to think this is, quote, unquote fair or not

John Ray: 00:26:34

fair. I hate that word in this context. We we're deciding for

John Ray: 00:26:41

the client whether they can afford it or not, yes, yes, or

John Ray: 00:26:45

whether they've got the budget for it or not. And a whole big

John Ray: 00:26:52

proportion of small businesses don't even keep a budget. So

John Ray: 00:26:55

please don't tell me it's not in your budget. You don't even have

John Ray: 00:26:58

a budget, right?

Janice Porter: 00:27:01

No, if you if you feel there's enough value,

Janice Porter: 00:27:03

you'll find the money, right? Isn't

John Ray: 00:27:05

amazing how that works and and actually, budgets are

John Ray: 00:27:11

priorities. Priorities change, yes, priorities Yeah, they

John Ray: 00:27:17

change based on value and value that's perceived. So that's how

John Ray: 00:27:22

you have to think about that budget objection that people

John Ray: 00:27:24

give you.

Janice Porter: 00:27:25

Yeah? Some people, somebody once said to

Janice Porter: 00:27:27

me, it's not that I can't afford it. I choose to say, or I say I,

Janice Porter: 00:27:33

I choose to spend my money somewhere else, right now,

Janice Porter: 00:27:37

right? Yeah, yeah.

John Ray: 00:27:40

So, so you know, if people want it bad enough,

John Ray: 00:27:44

they'll find the money. Even if it's not in the business,

John Ray: 00:27:47

they'll find the money.

Janice Porter: 00:27:48

Yeah, so true, isn't it?

John Ray: 00:27:50

Yeah. So what we've got to get to a point is service

John Ray: 00:27:57

providers, is that we're not prejudging what people can

John Ray: 00:28:01

afford, how they'll pay for it, anything like that. The question

John Ray: 00:28:05

is, the comparison here is the the value that that I'm

John Ray: 00:28:13

delivering as a service provider relative to pricing that takes

John Ray: 00:28:20

just a little piece of that value and that suddenly, this is

John Ray: 00:28:24

an investment. It becomes an investment. It becomes a a

John Ray: 00:28:30

linked exchange that I'm delivering value, and you're

John Ray: 00:28:33

getting a big outcome for the price that you're paying.

Janice Porter: 00:28:38

So in so many, oh, I'm sorry, someone's trying

Janice Porter: 00:28:44

to get hold of me in so many service based businesses that

Janice Porter: 00:28:54

threw me off. I Yeah,

Janice Porter: 00:29:09

okay, I was thinking about the trap of hourly pricing. And when

Janice Porter: 00:29:18

you are providing a service, and you're, you've already brought

Janice Porter: 00:29:25

the value conversation, and you know, you understand where the

Janice Porter: 00:29:29

clients coming from, and what the transformation needs to be,

Janice Porter: 00:29:33

and how do you get because it's, it's a stickler for me sometimes

Janice Porter: 00:29:37

trying to think of, okay, if I'm not charging by the hour. How do

Janice Porter: 00:29:41

I set my pricing? So can you speak to that?

John Ray: 00:29:45

Yeah, yeah. So the where you need to be is this is

John Ray: 00:29:55

where the questions come in. Is getting. Clients to verbalize

John Ray: 00:30:03

where they see value in transformation and how much that

John Ray: 00:30:07

value is. So let's go back to our example of the guy whose

John Ray: 00:30:12

business supposedly had no problems, right? And suddenly it

John Ray: 00:30:17

does have problems, and the biggest one is his business

John Ray: 00:30:20

partner, his wife, yes, so, you know. So when you when I hear

John Ray: 00:30:27

that, what the way I should have responded to him is to say, you

John Ray: 00:30:34

know, hey, what would it look like, and if you had a lot more

John Ray: 00:30:39

peaceful home life. What would that look like? And you see, you

John Ray: 00:30:44

start people down the road of thinking about what

John Ray: 00:30:49

transformation looks like and feels like, and how it changes

John Ray: 00:30:55

things for them. And you, what you get to is a point where it's

John Ray: 00:30:59

not just about how much more money the business made, or or

John Ray: 00:31:04

like if you're accountant, how much taxes you saved, or

John Ray: 00:31:07

something like that, it's it's not just the the outcome of the

John Ray: 00:31:12

engagement, per se. It's what you're able to do because of the

John Ray: 00:31:16

transformation that is much bigger than the work itself. So

John Ray: 00:31:26

what does peace at home look like? It's priceless, right? So

John Ray: 00:31:31

what does that do? What that does is it, it, it's a much

John Ray: 00:31:37

higher value. It's it's value that's priceless, of course, but

John Ray: 00:31:42

it increases willingness to pay

Janice Porter: 00:31:45

Yes, yes, I see. So

John Ray: 00:31:49

here's a little cheeky example for you. You don't

John Ray: 00:31:55

think, when you factor in what the cost of college education is

John Ray: 00:32:01

yes, condoms certainly don't seem more too expensive anymore,

John Ray: 00:32:08

right? So see, this is the point. It's like, you've got to

John Ray: 00:32:12

get to a point where people are thinking about the long term

John Ray: 00:32:16

implications of the transformation and what that

John Ray: 00:32:21

enables them to do with their business, with their with their

John Ray: 00:32:27

lives. What does it mean that I can take the family to Rome,

John Ray: 00:32:32

Italy, where we've always wanted to go instead of, you know, the

John Ray: 00:32:37

usual vacation we've always done, right? What does that

John Ray: 00:32:40

mean? Yeah, right. So, see the it's these things you've got to

John Ray: 00:32:44

get to, and when you can get to that, it just changes everything

John Ray: 00:32:48

in terms of willingness to pay and the kind of pricing you can

John Ray: 00:32:52

achieve. I

Janice Porter: 00:32:53

think we've come full circle, because I think

Janice Porter: 00:32:55

that's that, again, goes back to the value conversation first.

Janice Porter: 00:33:00

So, right? So, so when you work with a client and help them set

Janice Porter: 00:33:07

their pricing strategies, like, how do you pick numbers out of

Janice Porter: 00:33:11

the air if they're not based on, you know, an hourly piece, is it

Janice Porter: 00:33:15

just adding more things, or is it just the perceived value? If

Janice Porter: 00:33:20

that makes sense.

John Ray: 00:33:22

No, that does make sense. It's actually both so it

John Ray: 00:33:25

so it's certainly getting at where clients perceive value,

John Ray: 00:33:33

sharpening this the saw when it comes to asking the questions

John Ray: 00:33:37

that uncover where clients see perceived value. But frankly, a

John Ray: 00:33:42

lot of clients that I work with, what they what they don't see is

John Ray: 00:33:47

all the different ways they and different kinds of ways they

John Ray: 00:33:51

deliver their service that have value. I mean, for example, how

John Ray: 00:33:56

fast is this engagement going to work or unfold? How fast will

John Ray: 00:34:02

that, right?

Janice Porter: 00:34:02

Okay, that's another example in your book.

Janice Porter: 00:34:04

Yes. Okay,

John Ray: 00:34:05

so speed, yeah. So Janice, are you and I working

John Ray: 00:34:11

over? You know, we're my hair is on fire to take, take care of my

John Ray: 00:34:17

LinkedIn issues, yeah, and I need as much of Janice as I can

John Ray: 00:34:22

get for the next two weeks. Yeah,

Janice Porter: 00:34:24

I had a client recently that just did that. She

Janice Porter: 00:34:27

wanted to. She paid the top price, she said, But I have to

Janice Porter: 00:34:30

get it done by the end of March.

John Ray: 00:34:31

There you go. Yeah. So somebody that's in a hurry,

John Ray: 00:34:34

yeah, they've got a higher willingness to pay. Am I working

John Ray: 00:34:42

with Janice or am I working with Janice's assistant? You know,

John Ray: 00:34:45

there's, there's another one. What's my access to Janice?

John Ray: 00:34:50

Okay, do I do I get email access? Only Can I call you

John Ray: 00:34:57

baby, what? What's my access? See, they're all sorts.

John Ray: 00:34:59

Different ways that the service is delivered.

Janice Porter: 00:35:02

Yeah, that's perfect. And I think you also

Janice Porter: 00:35:04

had an example in the book as well about, I think it was the

Janice Porter: 00:35:12

was she? It was either the the bookkeeper or it was the

Janice Porter: 00:35:18

organizer, where you had a chart in there and you showed the

Janice Porter: 00:35:21

percentages, and you, you, you, you're a finance guy, so you

Janice Porter: 00:35:25

looked at the money as well. But the the chart was good. And I

Janice Porter: 00:35:28

think that's, there's so many good things. I said there's so

Janice Porter: 00:35:31

many good things in this book. So am I right there? Yeah, okay,

Janice Porter: 00:35:38

well, yeah.

John Ray: 00:35:39

Well, and here's one example that I used in in in the

John Ray: 00:35:42

book too, that that might be helpful is, you know, I had a

John Ray: 00:35:46

garage door problem. Oh, I love this story, yeah. And long, long

John Ray: 00:35:50

story short is, you know, the guy came out right that

John Ray: 00:35:54

afternoon, and, you know, he could have charged me a whole

John Ray: 00:35:59

lot more than He charged me. He still overcharged you. Well, he

John Ray: 00:36:04

his, his, well, his problem was, is that, is that he didn't ask

John Ray: 00:36:08

enough questions. Yes, understand why I was motivated

John Ray: 00:36:12

to get it done that day. Yeah, and so. And the motivation was,

John Ray: 00:36:19

my wife wanted this thing done now,

Unknown: 00:36:22

do it now. Do it now. And so I would

John Ray: 00:36:25

have paid a lot more than He charged me. Yeah, he

John Ray: 00:36:28

could have paid me a rush charge,

Janice Porter: 00:36:30

yes, yeah, yeah. Or, you know,

John Ray: 00:36:33

put that on my invoice. I would have paid it

John Ray: 00:36:35

gladly. Or he could have said, you know, if you want to save

John Ray: 00:36:38

some money, we can get out there next week. Yeah, and yeah,

Janice Porter: 00:36:42

but you know, I It's funny because you just made

Janice Porter: 00:36:45

me think of something that I'm not going to go into in this

Janice Porter: 00:36:47

conversation, because it's just makes my blood boil. But what I

Janice Porter: 00:36:52

noticed about it was, when you're first dealing with some

Janice Porter: 00:36:55

people, and it's the first exposure, it's the first

Janice Porter: 00:36:59

transaction that you're going to have, and that's exactly what it

Janice Porter: 00:37:02

turns out to be as a transaction. And then something

Janice Porter: 00:37:05

goes wrong, and now you try to get it fixed, it's murder,

Janice Porter: 00:37:08

trying to get it fixed. Murder. Nobody cares. Nobody owns it,

Janice Porter: 00:37:12

and nobody will call you back. And it goes on and on, and

Janice Porter: 00:37:16

anyway, that's what I'm dealing with. So it's very annoying, and

Janice Porter: 00:37:22

you can't do business that way. Oh, you know, well, but yeah,

John Ray: 00:37:28

well, people do and they don't forget that. What

John Ray: 00:37:31

they forget is like, who's going to refer you if you do business

John Ray: 00:37:35

that way? Yeah, you expecting clients to refer you? Who's

John Ray: 00:37:39

going to write your Google reviews that you're COVID, that

John Ray: 00:37:42

you're trying to build up. Yeah, who's going to do that? I mean,

John Ray: 00:37:45

there's, there's all sorts of ways this comes back to you.

John Ray: 00:37:50

Yes, exactly, yeah. And so why? Why do business that way?

Janice Porter: 00:37:57

I love this conversation. I think we I'm

Janice Porter: 00:37:58

going to have to have you back, because we could go on forever,

Janice Porter: 00:38:01

but I'm going to have to wrap it up, and I would like to ask you

Janice Porter: 00:38:04

couple of quick fire questions at the end. One, do you I

Janice Porter: 00:38:11

noticed you quoted a lot of books that I recognized in your

Janice Porter: 00:38:14

book, some of the good ones from way back and still, classics. Do

Janice Porter: 00:38:19

you read today? Do you read business books? Do you read

Janice Porter: 00:38:22

novels? Do you read in book form? Do you read audibly?

Janice Porter: 00:38:25

Listen? Do you watch? What do you

John Ray: 00:38:29

do? I typically read what I do, but, but I also I

John Ray: 00:38:34

like Audible for on the go, it depends on the book.

Janice Porter: 00:38:38

Okay, okay. Do you listen to podcasts? Oh, yes,

Janice Porter: 00:38:42

absolutely. What's your favorite one?

John Ray: 00:38:44

What relationship rules? Gotta

Janice Porter: 00:38:47

get it right though. It's relationships rule,

Janice Porter: 00:38:50

yeah, there

John Ray: 00:38:51

you go. There you go. Though, yeah, yes. I love, I

John Ray: 00:38:59

love podcast, and I love listening to, seriously, I do

John Ray: 00:39:02

listen to the to the I get hooked on podcast host and what,

John Ray: 00:39:09

just like any other podcast listener. And so I've listened

John Ray: 00:39:13

to a number of years. I love them. And so, you know, I That's

John Ray: 00:39:17

what gets me a lot of the podcast I listen to, I end up

Janice Porter: 00:39:22

talking to fans. Yeah, that's another piece,

Janice Porter: 00:39:25

actually, that I loved in the end of your book about

Janice Porter: 00:39:28

podcasting as a marketing tool, because it is. It's amazing what

Janice Porter: 00:39:32

the where it takes you and the people that you meet. So I love

Janice Porter: 00:39:35

that, and I think that's how we met, in a sense, because we both

Janice Porter: 00:39:39

had a podcast and it was an opportunity for us to talk. So

Janice Porter: 00:39:42

thank you, John, thank you for being here. Last question, best

Janice Porter: 00:39:46

piece of business advice you would share with my audience,

Janice Porter: 00:39:49

which is the same as your audience, really, business

Janice Porter: 00:39:52

owners, entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, service providers,

John Ray: 00:39:57

just understand that clients see more. Value in you

John Ray: 00:40:01

and what you do for them. Then you see yourself, and if you

John Ray: 00:40:05

understand that and make that a part of how you communicate, how

John Ray: 00:40:12

you deliver your service, how you position your service, your

John Ray: 00:40:16

business development, it will change everything. It'll change

John Ray: 00:40:19

your pricing. It'll change how you market, how much you have to

John Ray: 00:40:25

market. It will change everything in your business. So

John Ray: 00:40:29

to me, that's a powerful idea.

Janice Porter: 00:40:31

It certainly is. Thank you so much. Thank you for

Janice Porter: 00:40:34

being here today, and I know that it's about showing up with

Janice Porter: 00:40:39

intention, clarity and service, and in a world where Trust is

Janice Porter: 00:40:43

everything, your your insights offer a blueprint for building

Janice Porter: 00:40:48

client relationships rooted in value and respect. If we want to

Janice Porter: 00:40:53

learn more about your work, John, where can they find you? I

Janice Porter: 00:40:57

will put it in the show notes, of course. Well,

John Ray: 00:41:00

thank you. And first of all, thanks again for for

John Ray: 00:41:03

having me. It's just been such a delight my pleasure. Yeah, I

John Ray: 00:41:06

really have enjoyed our conversation. And thank you

John Ray: 00:41:09

again for your great work. So you can reach me on my website

John Ray: 00:41:13

is one place to connect. John ray.co, J, O, H, N, R, A, y,

John Ray: 00:41:19

dot, C O, connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm John Ray one on

John Ray: 00:41:24

LinkedIn. I write a lot about these issues on LinkedIn and

John Ray: 00:41:28

post there. And then my podcast, as you mentioned, is called the

John Ray: 00:41:33

price and value journey, and you can find that that podcast

John Ray: 00:41:37

wherever you access your

Janice Porter: 00:41:42

podcast, so perfect, and your book The

Janice Porter: 00:41:45

generosity mindset, the

John Ray: 00:41:46

generosity mindset.com to learn more about my book,

John Ray: 00:41:50

perfect.

Janice Porter: 00:41:50

Thank you so much. John, again, it's been a

Janice Porter: 00:41:53

pleasure talking to you and thank you to my audience, please

Janice Porter: 00:41:56

remember to stay connected and be remembered. You.